ok I rewrote everything into one document, I'll post it tomorrow. Decided to:
- add the Chaos Thunderhawk Gunship (as a support formation), as in BlackLegion's Red Corsair list
- add the Chaos Hunter (upgrade)
- increase the cost for the Basilisk support formation to 275 points (they cost 250 in the Steel Legion so I presumed 275 because of the higher In. Should it be even higher like 300?)

still thinking which obliterator's to put in the list, the official, or changed from the 'proposed changes thread'. What do you think? I added the hunter, so their AA isn't so needed anymore.

BTW, Vindicators are 20cm or 25cm? In the red corsairs are 25, but in the official are 20. Was there any sort of errata?

Sorry for the endless barrage of questions I'll test the list against my brothers tyranids tomorrow hopefully  

I would prefer Steves list (fixed to remove all the 0-x business, free SC and the other niggles) to that. Thunderhawks and stuff are loyalist and recent rebels, not traitor legions.

While watching toast with surround sound what would be your thought on a proper grand company? Okay 20 stands is out What about a guard 12 + Lord style? It could then infer the loyalists adopted their superior organisations for their own armies

Arty wise I like 3 artillery types in the list - the basilisk and then equivalents for manticores and bombards (both of which were used in the heresy but would have been impossible to maintain logistically).

I would also suggest different weapon configs for the Titans. Make them siege breakers?

So say inferno weapon on a warhound equivalent (well the feral practically is this), an assault rather than stand off warlord (tearing down terras walls) and perhaps a multirole reaver equivalent to the loyalist MRL/TLD/PF. With tails, chomping mouth etc etc Maybe for a rebel reaver inferno weaponry, rockets, CC tail and head, gatling style weapon.

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I don't mind the 0-x idea. It should keep the possible army lists fluffy  

Hmmm I remember a story in one of the older White Dwarfs when Abaddon the Despoiler was on a Thunderhawk Gunship. Also, there were some Chaos Thunderhawk conversions done by GW, so I presume that Traitor Legions do possess them, at least the Black Legion and the Iron Warriors should as the most active and noticeable of the TL.

The weapons on the titans are something to think about, however I don't have enough experiance in this system and war engines to make something new and balanced, so it would be up to you guys, the same with the number of stands. I must rely on your superior knowledge and gaming experiance  

I like Steve's list and the whole project. We need more such lists for the rest of the TL.  

The 0-x is there to balance the list at 3000 points. If you are changing it you need to alter things a bit.

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0-x limits are fine if you only ever want to play 3000pt games. Anywhere too far from that vacinity and the 0-x limits start creaking badly.

Better to use some sort of sliding scaling, such as 0-1 per X points, or whatever.

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There already is a kind of sliding scale for the 0-x limits.

Many moons ago Jervis told us with the list's being balanced for games between 2000 and 5000 points all formation limits were set at per 5000 points.If players wanted to play bigger games they should adjust the limits accordingly.

All 0-1 limits at up to 5000 points become 0-2 at 5001-10000 and 0-3 at10001-15000 etc.

That is indeed true, but the difference between 0-1 at 2000pts and 5000pts is considerable.

A theoretical 500pt formation will be 25% of your army list at 2000pts, but only 10% of your army list at 5000pts.

The knock-on effect being that at 2000pts you can pack your army full of the restricted formations, whilst at 5000pts you'll have run out of restricted formations a while ago.

In an army list where 0-x limits have been introduced in order to paper over known balance problems (undeniable for the Black Legion army list), and where the list contains many 0-x limits (as the Black Legion army list does), it consequentially follows that a 2000pt army list can be composed pretty much 100% of these underpriced/overpowered formations, whilst a 5000pt army list might only be allowed to take ~30% of its points from these restricted (known overpowered) formations... there is a clear balance issue there.

Notably, whilst most army lists will only include one or two 0-x limited formations, the Black Legion has three of its seven Core formations with 0-x limits... when 40% of your formations are under 0-x restrictions, and those restrictions were put in place in order to paper over known balance problems when those formation types were 'spammed', you cannot expect the army list to remain at the same level of balance when you stray from the 3000pt level the list was playtested at.

So yeah, it's fine when your 0-x limits are a single Avatar, or a single formation of Deathstrikes (plus Spacecraft, but those are limited due to pure game mechanic needs rather than balance), but clearly wobbly when more than 40% of your Core army choices are under 0-x restrictions.

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I see a little more clearly where you and TRC are coming from now.

I think we can all agree that 0-x limits for rare/Elite formations etc.is OK but setting 0-x limits on formations just to keep the list "internally" balanced isn't always the way to go.

Edited the list-

IW Grand Company - added upgrade of 0-4 CSM.  To allow larger size Grand Company

Increased Basilisk cost

Removed 0-2 on Terminators, only remaining 0-x limit is Raptors

Other suggestions

BL - I don't see any need to replace Imperial SHTs with obscurely referenced variants, if anything maybe replace the Shadowsword with the more siege orientated Stormsword

Adding thunderhawks - If we go down that route than we go towards SM with extra stuff. Also the list would become artillery to suppress flak and then air assault in operation whereas the intention is that it will be artillery with a mechanised tide.

Hunter - if we go down the route of removing flak from the oblit - depending on whether this is finalised with BL, I would prefer to include hydras as AA. I'm not keen on the stalker either as a completely made up unit.

Siege dread cost - best to start to high and reduce if necessary

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Ravager, feral, raptors and oblits cost changed to reflect netEA tourney changes. I'll not adopted any of the BL changes because as far as I can see they are still under playtest at the moment and have not been finalised. I'd prefer to test the rest of the list before muddying the waters with the additional items.

If and when they are adopted I'll put those changes in - though I can't stand them.

I'll replace the shadowsword with the stormsword when I have the stats to hand.

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IW Grand Company - added upgrade of 0-4 CSM.  To allow larger size Grand Company

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You're right with the 0-x.  

'Iron Warriors Grand Company' should be the name of the whole army. Grand Companies are led by Warsmith's as BlackLegion mentioned. Also, during the first stage of the Iron Warriors Planetstrike the Thunderhawk should be allowed to be used, however Emplacements shouldn't.
How about we let the army either take the emplacements or the Gunship? This way you could either the the First Stage Iron Warriors army or the Second/Third Stage invasion phase with the same army list.

Note that I have recommended the Stormsword's main gun to be upgraded from 30cm to 45cm range for the final version of Raiders, and Moscovian has I think agreed.

IIRC the only other change to the stats in the Minervan list is 'fixing the Stormhammer'.

Fellblade was the name of the more rounded looking Baneblade

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