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Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:

 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:08 pm 
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To assist both views on what Angron should be, I am happy to look at two options for people. That way, if people ever do wish to use him, both options will be there.

E&C: You able to provide the 40K/Armageddon stats on Angron for us?

For others out there, any further feedback on the initial post of Angron?

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:36 pm 
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Angron's stats are in this document: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_C....ageddon

In breif:
WS10 - BS6 - S7 - T6 - W5 - I6 - A6 - Ld10

3+ armour saving throw, 4+ invulnerable saving throw
His attacks may re-roll one dice per turn to hit, and wounds cause instant death to models with multiple wounds.
Enemies within 12" of Angron reduce their Ld stat by 1.
He can fly (has wings).




Compare that to Anggarath the Unbound (Warhammer 40,000 scale Bloodthirster that is about the size of Epic's Bloodthirster) whose stats are all 10's and 8's... Angron's just not in the same league.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:15 pm 
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And Angron doesn't has a Bloodletter bodyguard. He has a bodyguard of 2 to 12 Bloodthirsters.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:09 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 14 Jul. 2009, 14:36 )

Angron's stats are in this document: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_C....ageddon

In breif:
WS10 - BS6 - S7 - T6 - W5 - I6 - A6 - Ld10

3+ armour saving throw, 4+ invulnerable saving throw
His attacks may re-roll one dice per turn to hit, and wounds cause instant death to models with multiple wounds.
Enemies within 12" of Angron reduce their Ld stat by 1.
He can fly (has wings).




Compare that to Anggarath the Unbound (Warhammer 40,000 scale Bloodthirster that is about the size of Epic's Bloodthirster) whose stats are all 10's and 8's... Angron's just not in the same league.

And daemon princes used to be nastier than greater daemons and logically so. Daemons follow chaos gods because they are born out of chaos. Chaos gods value their mortal followers more than daemons as they have willingly CHOSEN to be their followers so makes sense they would reap their benefits over their mortal followers in abundance.

Daemon prince > greater daemon.

And who cares about 40k stats? Those are created with no thought to background information but exists only to sell models for $$$ and background(which they change every month or so anyway) can go to hell.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:13 pm 
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Not entirely true. Greater Daemons see Dameon Princes as lesser beings. As upstarts to be frowned. Greater Daemons where never mortal, they are born out of the very stuff of Chaos itself. Daemon Princes are only mortals given power by Chaos. IIRC this is OLD fluff and NEW again due to Codex Chaos Daemons where Greater Daemons are HQ choices and Daemon Princes only Heavy Support choices.




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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:17 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 14 Jul. 2009, 20:13 )

Not entirely true. Greater Daemons see Dameon Princes as lesser beings. As upstarts to be frowned. Greater Daemons where never mortal, they are born out of the very stuff of Chaos itself. Daemon Princes are only mortals given power by Chaos. IIRC this is OLD fluff.

It's not what greater daemons see but what chaos gods see. Greater daemons are loyal to chaos gods from the start and have no other choice. Daemon princes had choice and willingly gave their soul to the chaos. This makes them more valuable for the gods as the more mortal followers they get the greater their power grows. Greater daemons don't help in that regard.

If you are so interested in 40k stats then daemon princes used to be the ones who made greater daemons become green in envy.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:20 pm 
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Actually Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes in Wh40k are roughly equal in power level and points cost depending on type and equipment.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:26 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 14 Jul. 2009, 20:20 )

Actually Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes in Wh40k are roughly equal in power level and points cost depending on type and equipment.

Yes NOW after GW decided they want to sell lot more daemon prince models so toned them down to fit them in abundance. But they used to be one heck of a more powerful with stats and rules to make greater daemons go green in envy. You could really see that they were highly unique individuals who had excelled in service of chaos gods and been reaped benefits by the bucketloads by the chaos gods.

But just because GW changes stuff so they can get more £££ on model sales isn't good excuse to ignore background that used to exists when it's superior in quality and logicality to GW's "give us more £££" background.




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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:29 pm 
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No not NOW. Im talking about current and past Codices (3rd to 5th edition).
Only in 2nd edition there whre Daemon Princes in some kind of appendix and the all where unique special characters.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:54 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 14 Jul. 2009, 20:29 )

No not NOW. Im talking about current and past Codices (3rd to 5th edition).
Only in 2nd edition there whre Daemon Princes in some kind of appendix and the all where unique special characters.

3rd to 5th are essentially same crap except changed to sell different models in turn to maximise their £££. And 3rd isn't even that old.

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 14 Jul. 2009, 19:15 )

And Angron doesn't has a Bloodletter bodyguard. He has a bodyguard of 2 to 12 Bloodthirsters.

Yeah I read that somewhere too, but I do not think I will be able to slip that one under the radar    :no:

..hence the bloodletters..




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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:37 pm 
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As stated, I will work on 2 types of Angron.

Is there not any further assistance I can get in regards to balancing the proposals I placed forward or showing a preference for which type?

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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:37 am 
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In the Chaos Marine army lists from Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned, a Bloodthirster costs 1250 points, a Great Unclean one costs 1100, a Lord of Change is 1400, and a Keeper of Secrets a mere 900. Daemon Princes, meanwhile, cost 810 points. Individual Daemon Princes could have wildly varying stats, but they were typically below Greater Daemons in power level.

In second edition, the Daemon Princes were revised: all were unique special characters, and all were phenomenally powerful. One of them, incidentally, was a Greater Daemon: M'Kachen is a particularly wily and powerful Lord of Change. But these super-powerful Daemon Princes were something of an aberration: the editions both before and after have presented them as being typically less powerful than Greater Daemons.

To be honest, I think that both the super-powered DPs of 2nd ed. and the less powerful beings of 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th can coexist in the setting. In several versions of the rules (including the RoC ones), Daemon Princes have been very varied in their powers and abilities, with the first edition particularly emphasising that each DP was a unique individual with his own powers, peculiarities and history. The idea that a select few could be as awesomely powerful as those in the 2nd. ed. Chaos codex is not at all unreasonable. But both the earliest, the latest, and the majority of versions of 40k over the years have portrayed the typical Daemon Prince (insofar as there is such a thing) as being less powerful than a greater Daemon.

Quote: (tneva82 @ 14 Jul. 2009, 20:54)

3rd isn't even that old.

It isn't that new, either: eleven years.




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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:58 am 
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Frogbear, I think if you want to use the giant angron at home you should do so. What difference does it make if E&C doesn't like it when you will most likely never play him and he'll never see it :D The only issue you may have is in a comp - but it's unlikely many people would complain here in Oz. Plus he'd be a massive target which is a bit of a negative in game terms IMO.


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 Post subject: Project AngronCost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:23 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 17 Jul. 2009, 06:58 )

Frogbear, I think if you want to use the giant angron at home you should do so. What difference does it make if E&C doesn't like it when you will most likely never play him and he'll never see it :D The only issue you may have is in a comp - but it's unlikely many people would complain here in Oz. Plus he'd be a massive target which is a bit of a negative in game terms IMO.

Hi Dobbsy

Yeah that was never a concern. I was always going to use, and encourage others to use the large Angron. Yet if E&C and others would also like their piece of the pie, happy to try and balance one for them as well.

My immediate attention is on the Juggernauts for the upcoming game. Angron can be an addition when I get a few games with this list under my belt.

Then it is my hope to work with you on other aspects of the World Eater list that may need to be looked at (I have no idea what or if we need to, but you never know what play testing brings out).

Thanks for your support dude

Cheers....

:agree:

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