Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 16
  [ 226 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 16  Next

The new Blood Rage....
nealhunt
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:49 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
I agree that it's something to keep an eye on.  I just wouldn't reject it without testing to see how often it actually comes up.

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:12 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (zombocom @ 06 Jul. 2009, 15:09 )

Don't like the transport idea, it's too bizarre. It may sound ok on paper, but ingame:

"So I lose by 1. All my transports die."
"Huh?"

CC2+ is fine, it represents different things to the Banshee 2+. Banshee 2+ represents their high skill and their power swords, whereas Berzerker 2+ mostly represents the sheer frenzy of their attacks. They're certainly better in CC than assault marines.

:agree:

Chainaxes have it over chainswaords for brutal strength overall




_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Don't like the transport idea, it's too bizarre. It may sound ok on paper, but ingame:

"So I lose by 1. All my transports die."
"Huh?"

my only thought is that I'd like to avoid the having to fall back with non-fearless transports for the fearless berserkers. It just doesn't seem like the way they should behave in an assault. And I'm against making the transports fearless unless I truly have to. In your example they have still lost a combat regardless of by how much. Would you prefer them to run away with their transports or actually remain in the fight like beserkers should? Which is more weird?

A bonus to Engage activations (like the recent change to the Death Company) and the Hold-becomes-Engage are both good options in my book

While I'm fine with a +1 to activation, I'm still not convinced the engage on hold result isn't too weird. But hey, if the consensus would prefer this then I'll leave the rule pretty much as is. I've just been a bit perplexed that no one seems to agree on it. Just look at the WE 1.01 thread and see how many folks oppose whatever idea for whatever reason...

particularly:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y294083
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y294339
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y294353
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y296210
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y304755





whereas Berzerker 2+ mostly represents the sheer frenzy of their attacks. They're certainly better in CC than assault marines
Would perhaps an extra attack be out of the question then? 2x 3+ attacks? Some people have mentioned it in the past.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
zombocom
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:21 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 07 Jul. 2009, 01:14 )

whereas Berzerker 2+ mostly represents the sheer frenzy of their attacks. They're certainly better in CC than assault marines

Would perhaps an extra attack be out of the question then? 2x 3+ attacks?

2x3+ is way, way better than 1x2+. Hell, 2x4+ is better than 1x2+.

I like 2+ for bezerkers. Why roll more dice than we need to? This is Epic, not 40k where a dice-shovel is a required piece of kit.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hell, 2x4+ is better than 1x2+.

Are you saying "better" to mean a better choice or "better" that it's OTT?

The chance you only hit 50% on average is better than hitting 84% of the time on 1 die? It goes without saying that you'll almost always hit on 2+.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:41 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Dobbsy, some number crunching for you:

2x 3+ attacks -- Statistical number of hits: 1.33 hits.
2x 4+ attacks -- Statistical number of hits: 1 hit.
1x 2+ attack -- Statistical number of hits: 0.83 hits.


So by proposing either 2x 3+ or 2x 4+ to hit, you are proposing a significant upgrade in CC power for Khorne Berzerkers.

A formation of 2x 4+ Berzerkers will apply 23% more hits than a formation of official Berzerkers.
A formation of 2x 3+ Berzerkers will apply 50% more hits than a formation of official Berzerkers.



As Zombocom says, this is Epic, there's no need to roll lots of dice when one will do.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:23 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ok then 2+ it is.

Zombo and E&C -
Let me say this up front as I am not trying to offend here. I'm truly not saying this with any vitriol guys, I am really trying to understand your views on this game. Can you give me an idea how you see this army running? Would you guys prefer just to have no special rules in general and have flat, slightly dull armies? I may be way off here, and again I'm not trying to offend you here, but I often see your points of view as nit picking a lot of the time. Rather than putting forward any alternatives or adjustments to special rules that you think might work, you often shoot down any original proposals almost out-of-hand. I'm absolutely positive you aren't doing this on purpose, but it does perplex me.

Just for an example Zombo, you said you think my transport option was "bizarre." No worries. What would you prefer the Blood Rage to do? Would you prefer the WE's to be bog-standard berserkers with no special rules? How would you convey the flavour of a complete Khorne-based army? Would you even bother to convey flavour - you may hate all flavour in lists - I can't know for sure as I don't know you personally.

Can you guys give me your ideas for Blood Rage so perhaps I can take your ideas onboard and maybe incorporate them?

Cheers lads :agree:
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:46 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Forced moves are not really that cool idea as enemy can position his forces so that you are forced to engage with only one unit

This is one of my reasons for wanting to change it. I've never been a fan of armies that take the control away from the player. I hated the 40K variant of the WE's for this sole reason. Other penalties can be worked to represent berserk it has to be possible.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
zombocom
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:01 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 07 Jul. 2009, 04:23 )

Just for an example Zombo, you said you think my transport option was "bizarre." No worries. What would you prefer the Blood Rage to do? Would you prefer the WE's to be bog-standard berserkers with no special rules? How would you convey the flavour of a complete Khorne-based army? Would you even bother to convey flavour - you may hate all flavour in lists - I can't know for sure as I don't know you personally.

Can you guys give me your ideas for Blood Rage so perhaps I can take your ideas onboard and maybe incorporate them?


My ethos is that I'm definately against unneccesary special rules, but I'm a big fan of a list having one or two "flavour" rules, if they're appropriate and elegant.

I've said a couple of times in this thread that I'm a big fan of the current Blood Rage rule. How is that saying I want no special rules?

Maybe lose the forced move towards the enemy bit, but I'm a big fan of allowing them to assault if they fail their activation, it's very much in theme.




_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (zombocom @ 07 Jul. 2009, 01:21 )

Why roll more dice than we need to? This is Epic, not 40k where a dice-shovel is a required piece of kit.

You are obviously not getting enough models into HtH combat then.

It is not uncommon for a combat on our tables to hold 20+ dice in hand for a massive combat. How many dice does it take before the shovel is brought out?

Personally I like the Bloodrage as it stands as it adds the flavour, if not the stratergy acumen. However I have said it many times that the World Eater list (as opposed to any other Khorne specific chaos marine list) for the post Heresy after the debarcle with kharn is not meant to be reliably strategic.

World Eaters are warbands now - not a legion. They are not wholy united as they once were, and they suffer from their cranial augmentations. Other legions of khorne Chaos Marimnes would not suffer this problem to the same extent. The World Eaters however are stuck with their uncertainty and bloodlust.

Dobbsy: are you sure that when trying to develop this force, you are not trying to make them a standard Chaos Khorne force rather than the World Eaters? They are definately two different ideals. Personally I would accept playtesting different things, if they were not World Eater based. I do not have an answer as yet for the World Eaters and the Bloodrage rule, hence I cannot present anything just yet. I just think that the brainstorming for World Eaters are just not hitting the mark - with me anyways.

I will keep at it however and send through some wild ravings when I come across them. Always happy to listen to others wild ravings as well. Without these, things will never change for the better - if required

Cheers......

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
BlackLegion
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Wllif you don't like forced moves then how about this:
When failing an activation the formations gains a Blastmarker and takes a Hold action. But replace the Move and Shoot parts with Engage. So with a Hold action a World Eaters formation can only choose between Engage or Regroup.

If this is not khrony enough then replace Regroupfor Shoot (Khorne is also about bog guns, see Cannon of Khorne, Tower of Skulls, Blood Reaper, etc). So with a Hold action a World Eaters formation gains a Blastmarker and can only Engage or Shoot.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:43 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5682
Location: Australia
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 07 Jul. 2009, 10:19 )

So with a Hold action a World Eaters formation gains a Blastmarker and can only Engage or Shoot.

Not bad. It's a nice balance.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 07 Jul. 2009, 04:23 )

Ok then 2+ it is.

Zombo and E&C -
Let me say this up front as I am not trying to offend here. I'm truly not saying this with any vitriol guys, I am really trying to understand your views on this game.

No offence taken, my only comment so far in this thread has been to chip in with some number crunching for you anyway, so I'd have to dig pretty deep to be offended.


Would you guys prefer just to have no special rules in general and have flat, slightly dull armies?


I quite like the current special rule, it seems very Khornate that should they fail their initiative test they get carried away and go nuts trying to get at the enemy / run as fast as possible towards the enemy.

I may be way off here, and again I'm not trying to offend you here, but I often see your points of view as nit picking a lot of the time. Rather than putting forward any alternatives or adjustments to special rules that you think might work, you often shoot down any original proposals almost out-of-hand. I'm absolutely positive you aren't doing this on purpose, but it does perplex me.

I feel this is mis-labelling me, as I'm always careful to offer an alternative if my opinion is different to someone else's.

In this particular thread the only opinion I've offered is that rolling lots of dice doesn't really fit with the design ethos of Epic. The clear alternative I'm offering there is 'don't make rules where you roll lots of dice'. :))


=====


Since you've requested a critique I've had a look at the army list (I found v1.0.2 hope it's the latest version), and here are some comments. Sorry if this sounds harsh, there's much more good than bad here, but the point of critisism is to help make something better, and until it's done comments will naturally focus on the negatives that could be improved:



- To make it more Khornate, why not introduce the two new Daemon engines (the Blood Slaughterer and the Brass Scorpion)?

- You could replace the Swiftdeath fighters with Hellblade fighters, as they actually have a model.

- 'World Eaters Chosen' should be renamed 'World Eaters Terminators'. Chosen are something else entirely these days AFAIK.

- By eyeing those stats, Destroyers are worth more than 75pts. More like 100/125 IMHO. Are you going to adopt the modernised base stats for the Destroyer? I'd suggest so as a faster Defiler hull that prefers CC would seem to be appropriate for Khorne!

- I'm not a fan of D3 attacks being put onto anything smaller than a War Engine (Destroyer, Dreadnought), I suggest a straight '2' as it's easier to balance and isn't so 'bitty'.

- The Khorne Daemon Prince looks a bit too good (this list has improved both his CC stat and his number of attacks, for the loss of the ranged attack). Possibly nudge up 25pts or drop 1 attack?

- You may want to add the Harbinger bomber, from the playtest list.

-  I suggest fixing the size of the infantry support formations (8 units sounds nice and fluffy) as it's less min/maxable that way.

- Most armies pay 100pts for access to a Supreme Commander. Orks only have a free SC to compensate for their poor initiative rating. Even if he's mandatory, I think you should have to pay at least 50pts for him.

- I would suggest removing the 0-2 limit on the Terminator formation ; without Obliterators the formations shouldn't be such Swiss Army Knives, and consequently should require support in order to win games... if you want to keep the limit for fluff reasons, either institute a limit that scales to the size of game being played, or move them into being a Support Formation.

- Nitpick: Inititative and Strategy Rating should be at the top of the army list page, not the start of the document as a Special Rule.

- The Feral Titan has an extra attacks typo on its Hellmouth weapon.



=======

Overall it looks good, looks to me like the most powerful list style would be a mega Dreadclaw assault, and while the enemy are recovering from being hit by the deathwind strikes (which technically shouldn't be there as Chaos don't actually use Deathwind/Deathstorm pods...) and the orbital bombardment, the Berzerkers charge... playtesting may show that the cost of space-dropping for this particular army list may need to go up a bit, as it sidelines the World Eater's main weakness (lack of ranged firepower, Cannons of Khorne excepted).

The World Eaters are my favourite Chaos Legion, and it's cool to see this list moving forwards again. I may try out some games in time.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 16
  [ 226 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 16  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net