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Defiler Formations
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:19 pm 
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I prefer the assaulty new stats though.


And it matches the background properly, as the Defiler's main gun doesn't have Indirect Fire in Warhammer 40,000/the background... it's supposed to be a CC unit.

I'd love to see Defilers make an appearence in the Daemon World list as an undivided daemon engine support formation.
You'd want the Soul Grinder in a Daemon list, as it's the 'unbound' version of the Defiler.

Of all the arty/counter arty tactics I've found the defiler the most annoying as there is very little you can do about it and doesn't eat too many points!

Indeed, at 75pts I can imagine a single one being an annoying minor arty / BM-layer, attached to the inevitable CSM retinue w. Obliterators guarding the Blitz.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Ive taken a defiler every time I have taken BL to a tourney - great for anti-arti I wouldnt take one of the new ones though as its just an expensive dread now

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 21 May 2009, 17:53 )

Ive taken a defiler every time I have taken BL to a tourney - great for anti-arti I wouldnt take one of the new ones though as its just an expensive dread now

That's why it needs its own formation ala the L&TD.

The artillery/slow version is really unrepresentative of what a 'Defiler' is.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:25 am 
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Also, isn't the NetERC / Red Corsairs Defiler 20cm with infiltrate?

That's not too slow really...




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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:46 am 
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20cm speed is no different in effect from 15cm - it still can't keep up with rhinos (like a dread) and is a magnet for AT fire in an all-infantry formation (like a dread)

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:39 am 
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I've used them at one tournament. The cost of the formation sky rockets if you start to add more than one to a formation.

The problem with speed 20cm is that you can only have one in a garrisoning formation.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:42 am 
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attached to the inevitable CSM retinue w. Obliterators guarding the Blitz.[/quote]
A tactic which rarely happens as most players have realised that having nearly 500pts just guarding your blitz puts you at a disadvantage over the rest of the table




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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:11 am 
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Face it rug actual experience with the list and gameplay have been continually shouted down by the vocal few in BL discussion and so have counted for little. I can't see that this will change

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Couchmonster
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:26 pm 
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I can certainly put them in there...


Chroma please do, I really think they'd make a nice addition in the list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 22 May 2009, 09:59 )

I think the Defiler still represents it's 40k equivalent. At 15cms (engage range) it is great in cc and ff, at longer range (not represented in 40k)it lobs shells with it's big gun, what else is it going to do?

It specifically lost its indirect fire capability in the new codex (which is more than a year old now).

In return it gained a couple of CC attacks.

Ie: It got more deadly in CC, crapper at shooting.


Should BL have zero arty just because in 40k (a close quarters game) they have not arty?

I don't see why not... by all accounts it's a pretty lame arty piece anyway, requiring a formation to be attached to.

If we changed Epic every time 40k changed things would get silly. Besides there are plenty of examples of units being slightly different in 40k as they are in Epic. CSM don't need another assault AV and LatD already has access to Khorne Deamon engines, the Defiler has a unique niche, I'd rather see it kept the same personally.
I'm sure Jervis would agree...

...he's happy to keep the Baneblade & Vindicator, etc, as it is too!  :))




I just prefer that the lists are kept up to date when the opportunity presents itself, otherwise we end up playing NetEpic, where a decent chunk of the units act nothing like their counterparts in Warhammer 40,000.

I'm not in favour of slavishly following every single change, but in this case, the Epic Defiler is a 'shooty' unit, whilst the Warhammer 40,000 one is a 'combatty' unit. The role is completely different, and thus unrepresentative.

Allowing a new Defiler formation will go some way towards mitigating their loss of Indirect Fire.


I hope that outlines my position adequately.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 22 May 2009, 11:11 )

Face it rug actual experience with the list and gameplay have been continually shouted down by the vocal few in BL discussion and so have counted for little. I can't see that this will change

And I don't own a Chaos Marines army?  :D


Besides, this debate isn't about how the unit plays in the game* (it obviously fills a niche)... it's about whether the unit is representative of Warhammer 40,000 / the background**.

Currently, it's been left behind.


* Which you need a modicum of list experience to debate with.
** Which you don't.




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Mephiston
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:28 pm 
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While it may be fine for the 40K version to become a CC unit it really doesn't make sense for it to be one in the epic list.

Having on table artillery in 40K is plainly stupid from any perspective other than sales, that's why they exist.

In epic terms the black legion list already has a multitude of combat options, taking away a shooting unit and making yet another combat one means you see even less of them IMO.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 22 May 2009, 13:28 )

Having on table artillery in 40K is plainly stupid from any perspective other than sales, that's why they exist.

It's pretty stupid in Epic too, until you remember that the ground scale is bigger than it appears.

Warhammer 40,000 may be a game for kids, but it does have that same conciet (kinda... it's not as explicit as in Epic, but then nothing is).


In epic terms the black legion list already has a multitude of combat options, taking away a shooting unit and making yet another combat one means you see even less of them IMO.


I agree that it's not particularly good for the list, that's why I suggest giving Defilers their own formation, meaning that what they lose in indirect fire, they make up for with a newfound mobility, and would provide a pretty decent direct-fire capability whilst they're about the business of closing with the enemy for some CC (a 40cm charge is quite respectable in that department).




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