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CSM list review

pixelgeek

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:46 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

1 - The prevailence of 0-x limits.

Raptors are 0-1 due to background restrictions on them and also that they were quite nasty in multiples. The Assault Company is 0-2 due to feedback from TRC about how ugly they were in mass formations. We had a really pressing deadline for the conclusion of the list that turned out to be a non-issue and we need to adeequeltly deal with that issue now. Suggestions are in the Decimator topic

Ignoring the fact that that supreme tactician isn't nessesarily going to be present at every battle, giving a free supreme commander to an army with 1+ Initiative is simply not balanced.

Proof of that would be useful. People say this all the time but I haven't seen any sort of adequate explanation of how this is the case.

5 - Greater Daemons are too expensive

Not sure about the price... its the cumulative price and the lack of ability to actually summon them that is the killer.

I think the Summoning rules need to be scrapped and rewritten.

6 - The list itself is not pretty enough

YMMV. Its meant to be printed out and read. I think it is very legible and I can't see what point there is to adding photos.

The current list was done as a temporary document to present to players while the official list was being designed so it has no pictures.

Perhaps this is something that can be addressed later but the only issue I would deal with now would be ones of legibility and readability.

I wasn't around for the early summoning playtests; I had wondered if it was possible that your Daemon Pool could be directly tied to the characters/icons you purchased (So each Icon would let you have two Daemon bases on the board, for example, and you wouldn't pay for them seperately).

The original summoning rules were much simpler but made it too easy to bring out and maintain daemons and players would summon huge meat shields of daemons to ward off assaults or soak up fire from enemy formations.

I want to look at going back to the old sacrifices system and see if we can fix it as the current system is a bloody mess.

Dropping Fearless from the Decimator wouldn't be a terrible thing. Possibly from the Death Wheel too, although I'm on the edge on that one.

The Death Wheel seems more like a small Titan so it seems okay but the Decimator is just a tank.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:53 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(Mephiston @ Mar. 03 2008,10:42)

QUOTE

Can I ask if you are basing the discussion on Ferals/Decimators with or with out the MW barrage propsed change?

Currently I am basing this on the existing rules. Once we have a confirmed change then we can examine that.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:58 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Raptors are 0-1 due to background restrictions on them and also that they were quite nasty in multiples.

That is a simple indication that the unit is too cheap, and instead of raising the price, a 0-x limitation was enacted.

The background on Raptors being very limited has been changed as of the new Chaos Codex, AFAIK.

Proof of that (That free supreme commanders for the Chaos armies are unbalanced) would be useful. People say this all the time but I haven't seen any sort of adequate explanation of how this is the case.

It's self-evident in theory and cannot be 'proven' in practice.

All that results is that effectively a Chaos list will be 50pts cheaper than its opponent (A 1.6% variance in a 3000pt army list).

Proving that a 1.6% difference in points makes or breaks a game is nigh-impossible.

Its meant to be printed out and read.

Then use black and white photos?

It's just so darned un-pretty.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:29 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 03 2008,10:58)

QUOTE

Raptors are 0-1 due to background restrictions on them and also that they were quite nasty in multiples.

That is a simple indication that the unit is too cheap, and instead of raising the price, a 0-x limitation was enacted.

See emphasis above

It's self-evident in theory and cannot be 'proven' in practice.

Well you're SOL then as its patently not self-evident

All that results is that effectively a Chaos list will be 50pts cheaper than its opponent (A 1.6% variance in a 3000pt army list).

1.6%. Wow. That is unbalanced.

It's just so darned un-pretty.

See I got that you think it isn't attractive the first time. Is it really necessary to go to this extra effort to insult my work?

I really don't appreciate it.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:51 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

See emphasis above

They were quite nasty in multiples, I get that.

Marine Assault Marines would be quite nasty in multiples if they were too cheap too.

1.6%. Wow. That is unbalanced.

Yes, it is unbalanced.

Maybe not the biggest problem in the world, but it comes up again and again...

See I got that you think it isn't attractive the first time. Is it really necessary to go to this extra effort to insult my work?

I really don't appreciate it.

I'm sorry for insulting you, I had no intention to do so; I only want to see a list that will inspire people.

What if there were two versions of the list, one with pictures etc, and the other one a streamlined ink-friendly version?

EDIT:
SOL

Please stop swearing at me.

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Kleomenes

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:59 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:39 pm
Posts: 227

I confess I dont own a copy of the chaos codex: How much is the change in raptors to do with what the codex represents? Or is the raptors change a blanket one?

If the BL retain the rarity of the jump pack then a 0-1 restriction for fluff reasons should be kept, but I agree with E+C about them being very good value for money that the moment. I cant see why I would take bikes and not raptors, and Ive used them every game. They are cheaper than a rhino mounted retinue, more consistently faster, better in assaults and easier to get into assault, but are unable to fire and also are less resilient (less units, no tanks to hide behind but conversely immune to AT). I regularly use them to spearhead assaults, supported by preplaced retinues giving support fire.

I could see a mild price rise. Same price and FF5+ would be another option, and perhaps a better one IMO.

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nealhunt

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:19 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 03 2008,19:51)

QUOTE

1.6%. Wow. That is unbalanced.

Yes, it is unbalanced.

Maybe not the biggest problem in the world, but it comes up again and again...

It appears these comments are becoming heated and I think you guys may be headed down a bad path here. Personally, I think both of you have sharp minds and make very good comments and I'd rather everyone stay involved and communicative.

===

I think the point here is that there are not just balance issues but perception issues with the list.

There's no discernible connection between the value of certain "upgrades" and a point cost, so people think of them as "free." This sticks in people's craw on the basis of...

* Balance is point cost for value.
* This has value, but no points.
* Ergo this cannot be balanced.

However, as noted, the theoretical point deficiency is so small that it's undetectable. Personally, I'd say that if there is no demonstrable difference in actual play, we can safely call it a stylistic issue. That doesn't make it unimportant, but it is much less important than something which can be shown to affect play.

I'd like to see us first focus on issues that have real, demonstrable track records of causing material problems in game play. Issues of style and perception can be handled after the more concrete stuff is done.

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Irondeath

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:19 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653

Here is my take:

Greater Daemons:

I occasionally use them in air assault/infantry focus lists to get a stab at enemy AV/WE, but it is a huge gamble. IF you don?t summon them when exactly when you need them, the formation positioning for them is usually toast. A Lord of Change recently won a battle for me all, due to saving like 10+ hits without a scratch while overunning a flank with the attached shooty LatD coven, but that?s both unseen before and fielding cultists.

Overall, in the BL list, GDs are just a little too hard to get, it?s not the price but rather the uncertainty. 8 is one summoning point to many, 7 would do.

As there has been criticism of the summoning system, I think it is, all said and done, okay and balanced. Notice how no one is complaining about Lesser Daemons anymore?

"Free" Chaos Lords:

My suggestion: BL retinue goes to 250 + Chaos Lord upgrade +25 or 0-1 Chaos Warlord +75

(and price IG Comissars at +25, but that?s another topic)

Bikers:

Could use a -25 decrease, they are slightly too expensive for what they can do in addition, they are ?overshadowed by the plain more useful Raptors.

Ravager:

It?s weaponry isnt?s worth 650 points. I can?t even speak from gameplay experience as on this matter on this issue as it obviously sucks...

Deathwheel

I love mine. Their shooting isn?t great, but both in a (supported) assault as well as supports they do nicely. The crit is nasty, though, and I?ve seen plenty of DWs taking it.

Chaos Air

Hellblades are okay with the revised stats, Hell Talons suffer from formation size and a weak save. In a larger formation, they just _might_ merit 100 Pts a piece, but in a formation of 2 they are overpriced. I love the models though, and field them whenever possible, but hardly for bang-for-buck.

Chaos Armour

Both the Pred and the LR are slightly too expensive IMO. As moving away from 25 points intervals is .. fiddly I?d suggest something like:

Armoured Company:

250 4x Chaos Land Raider
or
175 4x Chaos Predator

plus the usual upgrades.

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Kleomenes

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:30 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:39 pm
Posts: 227

Ive found the ravager not as bad as people say. Its shooting has been pants but it does well supporting assaults. I didnt really feel shortchanged heavily (just slightly!). I found the advantage of having something very tough, fast enough to support the mechanised assault and good at supporting has meant that the enemy either ignores it and lets it pound them or might focus on it and get hit by the other black legion stuff.

I dont know whether this is a proportionally better advantage than it would be in the SM list or IG list, for reavers.

If its felt to be too weak for its points, maybe making the TK gun TK (D3) would be enough, if a little bland.

I've been pleasantly surpised by landraiders when I have used them in formations of 6-8 strength. They do suffer from blast markers, but they also do a lot of damage! Their direct AT firepower is good for softening things up in advance of an assault

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:33 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I confess I dont own a copy of the chaos codex: How much is the change in raptors to do with what the codex represents? Or is the raptors change a blanket one?

IIRC it used to go something like:

Only 0-1 squad of Chaos Raptors may be taken in a Chaos Marine army.

Under the new codex, the 0-1 restriction was removed, so now you can take 0-3 squads like any other Chaos fast attack choice.

It appears these comments are becoming heated and I think you guys may be headed down a bad path here. Personally, I think both of you have sharp minds and make very good comments and I'd rather everyone stay involved and communicative.

===

I think the point here is that there are not just balance issues but perception issues with the list.

Cheers for clearing the air Neal, I think you've clarified my stance well and we can move on to discussing more important things.

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Irondeath

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:00 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653

@ Kleomenes:

I?ve found that ?2x8 Land Raiders @ 1200 points just doesn?t cut it, due to BM. If they?re not kept in pristine condition, their firepower drops to inconsequential with very little effort.

Regarding the Ravager, TK (D3) would help. I believe the very first gut-feeling incarnation of the stats just has never been reviewed and carried on across all the playtesting lists, never challenged as no one was fielding them.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:21 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(nealhunt @ Mar. 03 2008,12:19)

QUOTE

However, as noted, the theoretical point deficiency is so small that it's undetectable. Personally, I'd say that if there is no demonstrable difference in actual play, we can safely call it a stylistic issue. That doesn't make it unimportant, but it is much less important than something which can be shown to affect play

Lets just draw a line under this.

There is no impact on the list that anyone has been able to demonstrate. This is indeed a cosmetic issue and in lieu of actual evidence it isn't going to change

There is no reason for it to change which is why it hasn't been changed already.

Lets just drop this unless someone has something substantive to offer other than "I don't like free units".

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Kleomenes

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:24 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:39 pm
Posts: 227

(Irondeath @ Mar. 03 2008,21:00)

QUOTE

@ Kleomenes:

I?ve found that 2x8 Land Raiders @ 1200 points just don?t cut it, due to BM. If they re not keps in pristine condition, their firepower drops to inconsequential with very little effort.

Regarding the Ravager, TK (D3) would help. I belive the very first gut-feeling incarnation of the stats just has never been reviewed and carried on across all the playtesting lists, never challenged as no one was fielding them.

While I've been impressed with Landraiders, Ive only used one formation a game, and rarely has it been targeted by the enemy - so point taken!

I think its only a mild overprice if it is one though.

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pixelgeek

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:33 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 03 2008,12:33)

QUOTE

Under the new codex, the 0-1 restriction was removed, so now you can take 0-3 squads like any other Chaos fast attack choice.

The reasons for the 0-1 restriction are based purely on the stats for the unit in Epic. The "they are rare" issue was used initially but was discarded at one point and we went back to it for balance reasons

Given how badly received the new CSM list is I don't know how much we want to follow it

The Raptors have a nice feel to them in the list and I'd like to try and keep them distinct and not just "bad guy" Assault marines which seems a little boring

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pixelgeek

Post subject: CSM list review

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:35 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

I've not heard any comments about the Ravagers before. But that might just indicate that people aren't using them

Anyone use them in a game?

I also love using Death Wheels in Assaults but the firing is indeed a bit weak. I think that is a nice trade off though.

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