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Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:08 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 14 2007,15:54)
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But you can destroy such block easier. Shoot it or assault it and it goes away. Not so with fearless formations. And even if withdraw rules were changed, they would still not apply to fearless formations as they can stay put or remain closer than others ...

Yes, but usually in turn 3 and 4 there are so little activations left - especially in attack range of the objectives - that it is often enough that you can move your unit to block the objective, preventing enemy from marching to it. Fearless have no effect here.

But is true that if there is some fearless left in objective and you really need to destroy them, that might be very irritating job to do. But that is just the aspect of some armies - similarily it is irritating to play against skimmer army with a CC army.

So, it is their feature. Then we only need to find balanced point cost..
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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:26 pm 
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(Hena @ Nov. 14 2007,13:54)
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But you can destroy such block easier. Shoot it or assault it and it goes away. Not so with fearless formations. And even if withdraw rules were changed, they would still not apply to fearless formations as they can stay put or remain closer than others ...

Seem like you are irritated about it. Well, I am irritated about tyranids quite much. :)

So if you are ready to make tyranids less irritating, I am ready to see your pain with fearless marines. Before that should we settle about that that it is part of them and we have to live with it. :p

____

@Tiny-Tim: If you are going to make non-fearless unit to Slaanesh-list, then make sure it is not confused with Emperors Children, which are fearless, every one of them. Before GW publishes something about True Original Kult Legions, I keep teachings of my old Codex: Chaos Marines true, and it says that every EC has Mark Of Slaanesh and in that book it is same as fearless. New Codex is about Renegades and Black Legion and nothing it says is about Original Kult Traitors. :)

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:58 pm 
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There are several ways of approaching the list. I prefer to look at the playerbility of the units that we are proposing and worry about a 40k publication later. I accept that your approach is just as justified.

I really don't like the idea of Fearless CSM who are Scouts in a decently sized formation at a reasonable cost with no restrictions.

I would also ask the question - do the EC ever try and replace their losses. This is where the non-fearless aspect comes in from my view.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:32 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Nov. 15 2007,12:58)
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There are several ways of approaching the list. I prefer to look at the playerbility of the units that we are proposing and worry about a 40k publication later. I accept that your approach is just as justified.

Yes, that is why it is better to drop name "Emperors Children" so you can do as you please. Gamewise. That way everybody wins. Even them who want to use that list as "stand in for Emperors Children".


I really don't like the idea of Fearless CSM who are Scouts in a decently sized formation at a reasonable cost with no restrictions.


So no scouts for EC. And if scouts are wanted, then make to some "other slaanesh oriented renegade army".

I would also ask the question - do the EC ever try and replace their losses. This is where the non-fearless aspect comes in from my view.

I think that some of other renegade Slaanesh marines would like to be EC. So they send applyform to EC and one of criteria to be chosen is that you are Fearless. ;)

They should have no reasons to recruit some pussies to their ranks. Or at least they dip their novices to "Fearlesmaking goo". Or they give Mark of Slaanesh to their novices after they have proven their worth in somewhere. Or maybe they put only one novice to every squad, so it has no effect on anything. That one either survives and becomes Fearless, or dies.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"

I dont know, some way or other but every one of them is Fearless. :)

I think that non-fearles EC is as absurd as non-ATSKNF Terminator. They have fought for 10 000 years. They have had plenty of time to get rid of unwanted (non-fearless, non-slaanesh crap) and no reason to allow pussies to their ranks. If you want to put some kultist, mutants or something to that list too then some other non-EC guys would be acceptable. But if it is supposed to be EC, then no non-fearles. (I tend to repeat myself, sorry about that. :))




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Steve54
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:40 pm 
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I've played a few games with the EC and what tends to happen is retinues and especially legionnaires sit in cover and are pretty immovable especially when upgraded, whilst titans and knights stop anything getting too close.

I would favour Tims reduction of fearless units but if a lot of people are vehemently against that I've has a few other ideas-

Remove scout from legionnaires, add BL style Forlorn Hopes(not fearless - newish initiates)
Adopt the eldar rule of 'May not Garrison' except for forlorn hopes and knights. This should help to limit blocks of fearless units sitting on objectives.

Retinue - change unit to character upgrade and 6 noise marines with upgrade options of replacing 0-2 noise marines with havocs or possessed.
Remove fearless from vehicle upgrades - rhinos, dreads, defilers etc. This would mean that the maximum number of fearless units in a retinue would be 6 - a much more manageable number than the 10+ easily generated at the moment.

Havocs - is there any more need for a havoc formation than in the BL? remove this and make havocs a retinue upgrade. Could the units stats be changed to Heavy Blastmaster 30cm 2x AP5+/AT6+/AA6+ ?

These changes would largely keep that all full EC marines are fearless but limit the ability to sit in cover and the fearless unit sizes - not more than 6 in any formation

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:56 pm 
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The idea of a Havoc formation was growing on me. I agree with vehicles losing Fearless as well.

Nico, good to see that we can both understand our differences.

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:41 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Nov. 15 2007,15:40)
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Havocs - is there any more need for a havoc formation than in the BL? remove this and make havocs a retinue upgrade. Could the units stats be changed to Heavy Blastmaster 30cm 2x AP5+/AT6+/AA6+ ?

Now this is interesting idea...

In standard Retinue:
Replace any noise marines with possessed: +0 each
Replace up to 2 noise marines with havocs: +20 each

(or either any or 0-2...)
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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:42 pm 
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Actually that +20 is quite steep, should be more like +15 or +10
(maybe +15 if have AA)
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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Anyway, the main problem here is not the all fearless, but fearless and objectives - even if we change some lists so that only half of the units are fearless, that is still plenty to cover the objectives.

So, it is more like that the objectives and fearless need something to be done about.

One simple choice would be to force routed units to move away from engagement even if they are fearless. Would this be that horrible? It could represent the need to reorganize as too many casualties are received.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:40 pm 
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The problem of fearless and objectives would hopefully be at least partially addressed by limiting the number of  fearless uniits in a formation.

With my changes the maximum in any formation would be 6 whether it be noise marines/possessed/havocs formation, bikes, terminators or armour. At least with that size it is not so immovable whereas before you easily have a 12-15 unit fearless formation

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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:01 pm 
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(rpr @ Nov. 15 2007,17:25)
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One simple choice would be to force routed units to move away from engagement even if they are fearless. Would this be that horrible? It could represent the need to reorganize as too many casualties are received.

..and if that would be completely unthinkable to some units, they could have "unmovable", which would allow them to not move when they lose engagement.

More I think of this the better it sounds. The GT is - after all - about taking objectives, and thus IMO there should not be formations that completely break the idea of charging and claiming it.

(for war engines, this could be 1 hit for each enemy unit within 15cm after rout move)
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:40 pm 
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Okay, just to let you guys know I'm here and I'm paying attention. A few points then to throw into the pot while you guys debate:

I, too, think Fearless is pretty important for the EC - the Mark of Slaanesh always has been some form of immunity to psychology. I think it is very sad that the new codex has the Icon/Mark of Slaanesh providing an uninteresting initiative bonus and I am liable to froth at the mouth at the thought of my Emperor's Children Terminators runnign away. On the other hand, perhaps this is the way of things to come? If GW wants to change the Mark of Slaanesh they can... Still, at this point, I really wanted Fearless to be one of the core themes of the list - it is just unfortunate that other armies like the Thousand Sons also have claim to fearlessness.

Fearless and vehicles - initiatially the vehicles were NOT fearless in earlier versions of the list. The issue was that things like rhinos were extraordinarily vulnerable, leaving formations stranded easily. Now, to be fair, my Emperor's Children in 40K tend to use Rhinos as fairly expendable, but I'm not sure that should be the case in Epic. I'll consider it, but please bear in mind that they're Fearless for a reason!

Someone mentioned Defilers - actually, I would support altering their roles in Epic too, and removing the indirect fire for precisely the same reason as in 40K. They're giant, scuttling close combat monster tanks, not some kind of artillery piece.

Anyone fancy Obliterators? Seeing as that restriction's been lifted, anyone want to see these ... things ... in our army? We could do away with the Defiler variant then. Not sure I want to, as that was one of the few original things in the list...

Legionnaires losing Fearless or Scout I'm ameanable to.

Personally, I'm not all that worried about all-fearless formations as long as they're small, so I'd agree about limiting the options for increasing formation size. I've been playing with Grey Knights and even with ATSKNF and fearless their formation size can really scupper them.
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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:54 pm 
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Lord Inquisitor, new codex is not about Original Kult Traitors (EC, TS, WE or DG) it is about Renegades and Black Legion. And because of that anything it says does not have anything to do with Original Kult Traitors. It can be used (badly) as "stand in" for Kult Legions, but it is not about them.

Whole book is about Renegades. Those new recruits.

You have that book, do you? Because I have.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:06 pm 
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I do, and I have it to hand too. However, while the focus has pulled away from the original Traitor legions, that doesn't mean that we can assume that it has "nothing to do" with the Cult legions. Indeed, the fluff text of each of the Cult troops is tied directly to the legions that first spawned them. There's a reasonable amount of fluff on the Emperor's Children on page 39 (to be honest, pretty much as much fluff as there was in the old codex, the one that was "all about" the traitor legions).

Yes, I hope there will be a new codex that deals with the cult armies in more depth (although I'd rather have the Inquisition revisited first). Perhaps then we can see an all-Fearless EC army again. But then again, whether we're talking about founding legions or newely turned renegades, the Mark of Slaanesh is outlined in the codex and it no longer has anything to do with Fearless. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go about changing what I think is the main focus of the Mark of Slaanesh (the immunity to psychology) in this list, but if there HAS been a distinct shift by the design team as to what benefit the Mark actually provides - then we may be fighting against the tide here. I don't think that this will be a big issue in the long term, but I did think it worth mentioning.
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rpr
 Post subject: Emperor's Children v2 and some costs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:21 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Nov. 15 2007,18:40)
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Anyone fancy Obliterators? Seeing as that restriction's been lifted, anyone want to see these ... things ... in our army? We could do away with the Defiler variant then. Not sure I want to, as that was one of the few original things in the list...

They (Obliterators) are SO underpriced units that I'd love to have them :p

(Make debaser blastmaster twin variant like 4+/5+ and FF 3+ and then it starts to be o.k. when compared to Defiler. And 450 for 6 daemon engines.)

About this fearless formation sizes: In Iyanden list, you could create formations with 9 fearless units (and all with horribly good armor).. while you cannot garrison them, you could drop them from Webway portal..  so, if the large fearless formations are problem, I once again say that we could really change the general rules - yet again: force fearless units fall back from engagement (not fear/panic, just tactical regroup or are destroyed - they already show their fearlessness by not tacking hackdown hits)

Lord Inquisitor, what do you think about that Havocs as Retinue upgrade to regular Noise Marines, instead as their own formation?
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