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Mephiston
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:17 am 
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If workshop want to force 40K players to by 2 books so they can field faction specific deamons I see no reason why Epic should be forced to do the same.

It ain't broke so don't fix it  :angry:
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Evil and Chaos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:01 pm 
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Is it not broken?

Most Daemon types aren't being used currently...

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Mephiston
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:07 pm 
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Well I used deamonettes and beasts in my slaneesh force at Britcon last weekend. Both have abilities I want to use in different situations.

If players chose to only use beasts fine, but I see no reason to remove the other types just because the current 40K codex does.
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Evil and Chaos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Well, removing them would be contingent on a Daemons-only list being created, which is a whole 'nother prospect.

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BlackLegion
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:12 pm 
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If you really want to change it i would wait until this Daemon Codex comes out and see whats up with this.

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TheLimey
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:55 pm 
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I would remember scale. A 40k battle is effectively a single assault in a game of Epic. We have much larger forces at our command, and we should keep the range of demons that we have right now.

A demonic legion force list would be a good addition though.

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pixelgeek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:01 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Aug. 14 2007,01:35)
QUOTE
I still worry about the absence of god specific war engines in the BlackLegion armylist. Now deflavourising the daemons will be one step further in a direction i don't like.

I'm not a big fan of it either. I'm not sure what the reasoning was for doing this in 40K.

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pixelgeek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:07 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 14 2007,04:01)
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Is it not broken?

It might be but this doesn't seem like the route to take to solve the problem.

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pixelgeek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:10 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Aug. 14 2007,06:12)
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If you really want to change it i would wait until this Daemon Codex comes out and see whats up with this.

The daemons in the CSM list won't be changing at all. The stats we have are indicative of the stats that they are going to have in the Daemonic Legions codex in any case.

I think the most pressing thing for the Epic list are what sort of changes there are in the Chaos Marine list.

While there are changes to the Raptors I actually like the way they function in the current list and so it would seem a shame to change a fun, useful Epic unit in this instance.

Especially when it basically seems as if the difference is simply equipment.

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Mephiston
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:31 pm 
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Any chance of a preview of the changes you have sent to the ERC?
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pixelgeek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:39 pm 
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(Mephiston @ Aug. 14 2007,07:31)
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Any chance of a preview of the changes you have sent to the ERC?

With one or two exceptions they have all been discussed on the CSM typos thread

The only other changes that were made are

Chosen are now called Chaos Terminators
GDs are now called "Greater Daemon" and not "Greater Daemon of..."
Titan weapon arcs match the Imperial Titans where appropriate

Most of the changes have been typographical in nature.

Lord Inquisitor has a copy of it as well.

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Evil and Chaos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:03 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Aug. 14 2007,15:01)
QUOTE

(BlackLegion @ Aug. 14 2007,01:35)
QUOTE
I still worry about the absence of god specific war engines in the BlackLegion armylist. Now deflavourising the daemons will be one step further in a direction i don't like.

I'm not a big fan of it either. I'm not sure what the reasoning was for doing this in 40K.

The reason is very simple in my opinion; In order to do the Daemonic forces justice, the book would have to have been much larger than any other 40k codex, making it a very bloated document, whilst also reducing the balance of the army list and diluting the focus of the book.

Thus they're going with (at least) 2 seperate books for 40k, both for balance and for focus.


I think the most pressing thing for the Epic list are what sort of changes there are in the Chaos Marine list.


And the dominance of maxed out War Engine-centric army lists.




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Steve54
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:07 pm 
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Personally I think the Black Legion list has much right to be called finished and drop its version number as any other official finished list - all of which will face reviews in the fullness of time.

On the list itself it appears to be suffering from 'eldar syndrome' ie a new list comes out and wins a lot, some people wail about it being broken, and then as players learn to play against it it balances out far more.

This has happened in our gaming group - I've played BL twice a week, pretty much, since September and after the first couple of games to try stuff out I has a pretty high winning percentage but over the months this has levelled out to a point where it is no higher than with my other armies. This is also the case in tournament games - my results against experienced players who have played vs.BL before are very similar to those with other armies.

I've had a chance to look at the new Codex bit I'm not really in any position to comment on unit stat changes as I haven't played 40k in 12 years (and have no desire to see every detail crossover). But in terms of BL organisation the present epic list is quite reflective of the fluff - Black Legion has a core of original 'heresy marines' with the bulk being made up of newly created CSM(fabius bile), renegades who have joined the Black Legion, renegade groups who swear allegiance to Abaddon and cult marines who have sworn allegiance. So you can already use cult marines in the list and if you wanted to represent renegades just paint the CSM differently.

I don't really understand the fuss about raptors - yes they are an effective unit if you allow them to assault but so should any assault unit,be  and people learn to shoot them up - much as people do with warhounds, ferals etc.   If you allow a good player to use a unit exactly as he wants to it will appear broken the test is whether it can be dealt with once you know about it.

Defilers appear to lose any indirect fire in the codex but I don't know how that can be followed in epic without completely redesigning the unit.

I believe BL is a very nice list and changes due to the Codex should only be if absolutely necessary. Also give it a year of people playing and experiencing the list and I think there will be necessary balance changes (as with all lists) but in no way could it be called broken

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pixelgeek
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:17 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Aug. 14 2007,08:07)
QUOTE
Defilers appear to lose any indirect fire in the codex but I don't know how that can be followed in epic without completely redesigning the unit.

I can't see the point of the Defiler in Epic without the Indirect Fire weapon

It would need to be totally redesigned without it as it is a bit of a point sink as it is.

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Mephiston
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:37 pm 
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I agree with you Steve, over time I think one or two units may need a small tweak but nothing more.
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