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Dreadclaw questions
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 18 Jul. 2009, 12:19 )

Quote: (BlackLegion @ 18 Jul. 2009, 11:48 )

I guess what now applies is a question which only the designers can answer.

With all the name dropping that happens on these lists, surely someone knows somebody that can give the official design    

:yes:

The official answer is always "the latest printed book takes primacy".

Which means Drop Pods use the rules found in Codex Space Marines (instant arrival) as they were printed after Apocalypse, and Dreadclaws have a turn's worth of delay, as they were printed after both Apocalypse and Codex Space Marines.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 18 Jul. 2009, 12:51 )

Which means Drop Pods use the rules found in Codex Space Marines (instant arrival) as they were printed after Apocalypse, and Dreadclaws have a turn's worth of delay, as they were printed after both Apocalypse and Codex Space Marines.

You don't think that just *might* be an over sight?

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frogbear
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:48 pm 
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This thread has convinced me to contact Reaver to purchase some dreadclaws.

Dammit!  Will I never save any money?  :sigh:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 18 Jul. 2009, 13:48 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 18 Jul. 2009, 12:51 )

Which means Drop Pods use the rules found in Codex Space Marines (instant arrival) as they were printed after Apocalypse, and Dreadclaws have a turn's worth of delay, as they were printed after both Apocalypse and Codex Space Marines.

You don't think that just *might* be an over sight?

Possible but it does seem to fit with the presentation of the Dreadclaw as a slower but more manouverable craft than the Drop Pod.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:56 am 
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They are the same. Both are rockets/missiles fired (yes fired) from a spaceship which are propelled in a controlled drop to a planets surface (or spaceship in case of Dreadclaws). Both have engines which accelerate them even faster toward its targed until a certain proximity where retro-trusters are fired which together with inertial dampers ensure that the DropPod/Dreadclaw canland savely.

Now the difference is that a DropPod remains stationary while a Dredclaw can embark troops and take off again.

The fluff in Imperial Armour Update 2006 and Imperial Armour Apocalypse says about the Dreadclaw:
It is capable to lift off again, and so can be used to extract troops from a planet's surface as well as insert them.


So no talk about flying around in atmosphere as a Skimmer or Aircraft.
It is a reusable rocket. It can't fly around and make manouvers like a Helicopter or Aircraft.
A Dreadclaws ability to fly and hit a designated targed is something similar to a AGM-65_Maverick
But obvioulsy it doesn't explode on contact  :laugh:  but lands savely similar to a McDonnell_Douglas_DC-X and can take off like it as well. Butonly to fly back to the spacecraft from which it initialys was launched.

Dreadclaws are there to deploy Chaos Space Marines relatively safe and very fast to the targed and back. It isn't made for atmospheric flight in the same way as a transport aircraft. Andmost important: It is unarmed! Which Chaos Space Marine wants to fly around with relative slow speed in an unarmed coffin under battlefield conditions?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:04 am 
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The fluff in Imperial Armour Update 2006 and Imperial Armour Apocalypse says


Do I have to quote page 157 of Imperial Armour VI (a publication released more recently than either of the two examples you quote) again?

Dreadclaws are used to ferry troops around a planet's surface during combat situations, it says so in black and white in IA VI (seemingly you only have the older books).

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:20 am 
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I own only up to Volume 5. Volume 6 is ordered.

And your quote was:
"less manueverable in a planet's atmosphere than a purpose-designed aircraft, it can be used to effect re-deployment in the field..."


Less manouverable than an aircraft is, to me, similar speed but has trouble to change direction quickly and with a small radius.

Looks like a missile/rocket to me.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:39 am 
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Quote from IA:6
used to effect re-deployment in the field


I cannot see how that can be reconciled with what you say.
...no talk about flying around in atmosphere as a Skimmer or Aircraft.

It's spelt out clearly and indisputably that the Dreadclaw can ferry troops around the surface of the planet without returning to the space craft in orbit, and indeed its rules in Warhammer 40,000 allow it to do so.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:55 am 
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An apropiate representation would be the same rules as Dropods, without the Deathwind attack but with the option to embark troops and fly off to Self Planetfall on following turns.

But either that or Skimmer or JumpPack...does the Black Legion armylist really need this?

Youknow i'm always open to include new and interesting units or change established units to better represent its background but here is must ask: Which hole does my proposal, Skimmer or JumpPack fill?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:08 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 19 Jul. 2009, 02:55 )

An apropiate representation would be the same rules as Dropods, without the Deathwind attack but with the option to embark troops and fly off to Self Planetfall on following turns.

But that doesn't even happen at Warhammer 40,000 scale, let alone Epic scale.

In Warhammer 40,000 they just fly around the table redistributing your troops like a super-fast flying Rhino, they don't leave the table, head up into orbit, and then Deep Strike again ; they operate as battlefield transports, just as the background says they do.

And I dislike it when Warhammer 40,000 is more accurate to the background than Epic.


Which hole does my proposal, Skimmer or JumpPack fill?


It fills the hole whereby in the background and in Warhammer 40,000, Dreadclaws are used as atmospheric transports by Chaos Space Marines, not just as accurate drop pods.


Yes it's a radical element to introduce.
Yes it's a big playtesting challenge.

And no, it's not needed for the balance of the list. The list could easily stay balanced without this change.


But I believe the implementation of Dreadclaws in the original Black Legion army list has always been flawed (we've known since 2005 that CSM don't use Deathwind strikes, and we've known since then that Dreadclaws can fly about during Warhammer 40,000 games, even if it wasn't specifically pointed out in the background text until IA:6 in 2008 that Dreadclaws are used as battlefield transports as well as drop pods)...

...and if you're interested in changing the rule to more accurately reflect what a Dreadclaw pod is in the background, then why not take up the challenge of balancing a list that includes a genuinely new element, entirely unseen before in Epic.

This is an oppotunity to do something cool, that helps differentiate the CSM 'space drop' battle doctrine from their loyalist counterparts.


I believe it is an opportunity, to do something really cool... increase the character of the Black Legion / Chaos army lists, and at the same time, introduce a new and exciting tactical element to the toy soldiers game known as Epic.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:10 am 
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and if you're interested in changing the rule to more accurately reflect what a Dreadclaw pod is in the background, then why not take up the challenge of balancing a list that includes a genuinely new element, entirely unseen before in Epic.

But how will we be better served by this rule? I've read all the for and against in this thread and I'm not convinced that a major change is needed for the effect required. Will you be hard testing it yourself E&C?

that helps differentiate the CSM 'space drop' battle doctrine from their loyalist counterparts.
Take out the deathwind = pretty much the same....

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 19 Jul. 2009, 09:10 )

But how will we be better served by this rule? I've read all the for and against in this thread and I'm not convinced that a major change is needed for the effect required. Will you be hard testing it yourself E&C?

Yes I will test whatever change is ultimately settled on (if the Army Champion decides to change anything at all).

that helps differentiate the CSM 'space drop' battle doctrine from their loyalist counterparts.

Take out the deathwind = pretty much the same....

Taking out the Deathwind is the easy way to do it, yes. But is making that ajustment the path of least resistance?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:20 pm 
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Ok. Battlefield transports.
Still should be Aircrafts because they move as Aircrafts and not as Skimmer Fast Vehicles in Wh40k. Thats a minimum move of 36" like every other aircraft in Wh40k.
Dreadclaws don't have Hover Mode like Valkyries so they can't move around as Skimmer.

Solution:

Chaos Dreadclaw
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Aircraft  Fighter 5+ n/a n/a
None - - -

Notes: Planetfall, Transport (may carry two Chaos Space Marine, Havoc or Cult Marine units or one Chaos Terminator, Obliterator or Chaos Dreadnought unit). A Formation of Dreadclaws is treated as a single WarEngine for transport purposes.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Dreadclaws don't have Hover Mode like Valkyries so they can't move around as Skimmer.

They can however land, unlike other aircraft in 40k (I think).

Due to that fact I'd consider that to be roughly analogous to a fast Skimmer or Jump Packer, rather than a flyer.



Glad we're on the same track now though.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Dreadclaw questions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Thunderhawks, Vampire Raiders, Arvus Lighter etc can hover at low altitude and disembark troops as generic Skimmer transport vehicles because they all have Hover Mode. From transport aircraft without Hover Mode only JumpPack Infantry can disembark (in the same way as a Bombing Run).

Dreadclaws don't have Hover Mode (unless they have it now in IA6) but they actually land which is quite unique /(well DropPOds too but they are then Immobile) for all published aircrafts.

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