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Black Legion rules review

 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:19 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 28 2008,07:26)
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So they can die, so no fearless :)

They're as fearless as anything else. They're just as fearless as cult marines or dreadnoughts, both of which can take additional hits for losing combat.

It should also be noted that Fearless units suffer very little damage - "hackdown" hits really correspond to non-Fearless units, which get automatically destroyed if they are caught fleeing from combat!

Anyway, obliterators should still really be Fearless if we go by the 40K rules.


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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Yes. Current Epic-Fearless should be renamed Resolute, Calm or something.

In Epic Fearless should do the following:
- Fearless units are allowed an armour saves against Hack-Down hits
- Fearless units never get surpressed (or: never get surpressed but have to make an armour save if the unit is in a position to get surpressed but wishes to fire anyway)
- an all-Fearless formation never gets broken and never makes any withdrawal moves, even if it looses an assault.
- if an allFearless formation has at least the same number of Blastmarkers as units remaining in the formation each additional blastmarker will cause a hit which can be saved normally.

Good? Ideas? Separate thread?

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:19 pm 
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New thread I think.


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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:16 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ May 29 2008,07:11)
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Yes. Current Epic-Fearless should be renamed Resolute, Calm or something.

In Epic Fearless should do the following:
- Fearless units are allowed an armour saves against Hack-Down hits
- Fearless units never get surpressed (or: never get surpressed but have to make an armour save if the unit is in a position to get surpressed but wishes to fire anyway)
- an all-Fearless formation never gets broken and never makes any withdrawal moves, even if it looses an assault.
- if an allFearless formation has at least the same number of Blastmarkers as units remaining in the formation each additional blastmarker will cause a hit which can be saved normally.

Good? Ideas? Separate thread?

Raa, fear the new Calm Bezerkers!  :p

No, the current Fearless rules are just fine for Fearless units. There are several assumptions you are making that aren't necessarily true:

a) Fearless units suffer hackdown hits in 40K. Yes, they can take additional wounds for lost combat, but that doesn't really correspond to hackdown hits - Fearless units do not run away whether you shoot them or assault them. The fact that Fearless units can be dragged down by superior numbers can be represented by the fact that they are still destroyed if within 5cm of enemy when broken.

b) Fearless units cannot be suppressed in 40K. My Obliterators occasionally get suppressed. Not by any rules mechanic, but because they are fragile and it does happen that hiding them is the only option because they face overwhelming enemy firepower.

I kind of agree with you about the oddity of Fearless units making Withdrawal moves though. However, I've come to appreciate and love the Fearless rules in Epic, I don't think they need messing with.

If we need a sub-Fearless mechanic, then Stubborn works fine.


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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:37 am 
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Copied the Fearless discussion in this thread:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....y258996

And for Obliterators here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....721;r=1





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:08 pm 
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So...

According to E&C, the majority opinion of the UK tourney scene thinks the BL list is okay (though E&C disagrees, apparently)?  Did I read that right?

Lord_I seems to think it's only off by a bit.  PG only thought it was off by a bit.  I know the guys I play with (and if I read it right, the Memphis crowd as well) think it's only off by a bit.  The UK tournament scene as a whole apparently only thinks it's off by a bit.  Most of the suggestions on here only include a few minor point/stat changes, i.e. most seem to think it's only off by a bit.

Why is there still discussion of radical overhauls, going all the way to core rule change suggestions, when reports indicate a majority of people think it's pretty darn close as-is?

===

Here's the problem as I see it:  contrary to popular wisdom, group dynamics studies show that committee decisions tend to be more radical than individuals' decisions.  Because there are a wide range of opinions as to whether A or B or C is most in need of change, and how each should be changed, we're gradually constructing a laundry list that's going to include everything in order to keep everyone happy.  The result is headed towards a radical overhaul when very few people think anything like that is necessary.

Getting to a radical "Black Legion v1.8" like the Eldar revisions is a bad idea.  It's still not going to make everyone happy and a radical overhaul is likely to introduce just as many hidden "gotchas" as any new list design, with the result being the need for yet another round of changes.

Far better to go with fewer changes that only address the items that are almost undisputed as wrong.  Even if over time it's proven that it wasn't quite far enough, at least you know you're not introducing new problems.





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:45 pm 
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Hmm interesting observation.

But well. I made my "own" BlackLegion armylist...i only called it Red Corsairs :D
The only things i can't change there are the things wich is used by the oficial BlackLegion army list too. Thats Obliterators, Cult Marines and the way Daemon Summoning works. :D

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:44 pm 
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According to E&C, the majority opinion of the UK tourney scene thinks the BL list is okay (though E&C disagrees, apparently)?  Did I read that right?


I think that overall the list is only slightly strong, but that there are some big internal balance issues that mean certain units are carrying the rest of the list, if you see what I mean.

The result is headed towards a radical overhaul when very few people think anything like that is necessary.

I have 6 issues:

1 - The prevailence of non-scaling 0-x limits, meaning that the list is only balanced at 3kpts.
2 - The Free Supreme Commander / Free characters, both of which should cost points.
3 - Flyers, stats don't match models.
4 - Feral Titans, and to a lesser extent Decimators, are too good.
5 - Greater Daemons are too expensive
6 - Obliterators are slightly too cheap / slightly too good.


Of those, 2, 4, 5 & 6 are trivial fixes, 3 is a moderate but important change, whilst only 1 is radical (And is not even nessesary for the minimum tournament changes).


I trust the army champion to make the call, regardless of our laundry list. :)

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 30 2008,16:44)
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I think that overall the list is only slightly strong, but that there are some big internal balance issues that mean certain units are carrying the rest of the list, if you see what I mean.

But isn't that the case with a lot of lists?

With BL you have to take several retinues, a couple of ferals and some obliterators.
With IG you have to take 2-3 mech infantry cos, scouts, shadowswords,hydras, vultures and deathstrikes.
With SM you have to have several thunderhawks and several warhounds.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:59 pm 
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(Steve54 @ May 30 2008,16:57)
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But isn't that the case with a lot of lists?

Certainly, but it seems to be the case moreso with the BL list.

I.E, most BL tournament lists look very similar to each other, certainly more similar to each other than any other army's lists.

The BL list has certain "crutches" which need fixing. It's not that broken as a whole, but it does have some broken units. Most broken units are toned down with arbitrary, non-scaling 0-x limits, which further lead to homogenising the armies made with the list.

It would be enormously preferable if the 0-x limits were all removed, and the overpowered/underpriced formations are properly ballanced.

With the right points costs the 0-x limits won't be needed.





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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:00 pm 
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But isn't that the case with a lot of lists?


I think that the internal balance issues in the BL list are more prominent in the BL list than they are in most other lists, at least in part due to the structure of the list itself.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:02 pm 
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I think you'll find that the most succesful IG + SM lists have been as similar to each other as the BL

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Essentially, the BL list is sort of ballanced at 3000 points, but is overpowered below that and underpowered above, all due to the 0-x limits papering over the problems with several prices.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:18 pm 
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Right, time to make a decision, here are the minimalist changes:

Black Legion modifications

Army list changes:
  • Increase Obliterators to 85 points each
  • Add the Assault Company to the Chaos Titan Legion War Engine box
  • Ravager titan reduced to 625 points
  • Feral titan increased to 325 points
  • Raptors increased to 40 points each
Unit changes:
  • Daemon Prince: Remove Titan Killer (1) from both weapons
  • Reduce Greater Daemons to 7 summoning points






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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Look good to me.

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