No.

I am of the firm belief that if the World Eaters want AA, then they have to take aircraft. It is a weakness that I would want to remain in the list. Especially with the Hell Blades going to 225 points.  

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People are always talking about what makes list different and having AA on an inf unit is different for Black Legion.

If the issue is still the deployment options remove teleport and dreadclaw access from the oblit. Then the only place black legion can have AA is in foot retinues. Sure they can garrison but the opponent controls were he places the objectives so has a choice in that.

Which might balance things, but would be completely against the background and 40k rules, where Obliterators are habitual teleporters.

Better to balance the unit in-line with the background, rather than invent something new that is almost but not quite an Obliterator.

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Does the Oblit. need to have 3 shots. IG heavy weapon teams were in 3's in 40K when the IG list was done but they only have 2 shots per stand.

Would 2 x AP5+/AT5+/AA6+ 45cm range be OK

I think if the fearless was dropped almost all the problems with the unit would go away although personally I only find them annoying not OTT.

- - And I will just re-iterate my plea to drop AA from the Oblits as they stand (and I am with Jeridan et al on why), and add TWO new AA units:-
- STALKER for mobile AA
- DEFILER / DESECRATOR for static or infantry AA

I would also group these options together with the revised Oblits to be called "Heavy weapons" upgrade (at appropriate points costs of course) to allow the player to pick the relevant unit(s) for the job he has in mind.

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That's all fine but will make the average BL list even more mobile Ginger. It's already a hard hitting list and by giving the retinues the ability to move 30cm with their AA cover intact is, imo, an upgrade over the oblits.

Agree.

I am not so sure Meph.

Providing your Retinue with a Stalker leaves the AA sticking out like a sore thumb unless you also buy the Rhinos to make the whole lot mobile - and even then some AT fire striking home can ruin your mobility. However the Stalker would come into its own in an armoured company, providing mobile (though fragile) ground AA

Adding the better armoured Defiler/Desecrator means restricting mobility (but does make a good garrison unit). It will provide better backfield cover where mobility is less necessary, bolstering the objective defenders. However you may still feel the need to add further armoured upgrades to provide some further cover to the AA

Adding Obliterators to your Retinue and Terminator formations gives Planetfalling /teleporting formations more resilience and better firepower. If AA is needed for these advanced formations it can be provided by the airforce (Hellblades) until they can be reinforced by formations with ground AA.

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I agree with all that Ginger, which is why I suggest removing oblits from the terminators some time ago, and don't let them in dreadclaws.

The stalker will mean the end of foot based retinues, they will all be rhino based and perform as assault preparation for death wheel attacks.

No other list other than Eldar has more than one choice of ground AA (as far as I know) and I don't think BL should be the second.

Well, I am less concerned about having two AA units provided there are reasonable inhibitions to their use, which I believe are provided by the light armour of the Stalker, and the 15cm move for the Defiler / Desecrator.

Removing AA from the Oblits does make them very like Terminators, but in recompense I have suggested the Oblits shoud get FF (EA+1) to reflect all that firepower, together with a price drop to 75 points. IMHO This approach provides distinct functions for each of the "Heavy Weapons" upgrade units.

However, I would still allow the modified Obliterators to be upgrades for Terminators and also let them use Dreadclaws. What is the problem with these in a planetfalling / drop pod role?

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That was the initial complaint about the oblit - a hard to kill fearless unit that is on the opponents baseline

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Also can I reiterate my plea for playtesting. A the moment the target is that in the 1st half of March the next version will be drawn up and given to the NetERC as the BL and LATD revised lists so focus can move on to the other chaos lists.

As it stands the AA would probably have to stick with the easiest option - a downgraded oblit due to the dearth of playtesting rendering any new units unviable.

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Have you had a read of this Steve?

http://www.flameon.co.uk/index.p....emid=53

It's my turn up against BL this week, so I'll try and take some pics and get a report up.

What are your current thoughts on a reduced Oblit?

The Death Korps of Krieg (a completely finished list) has the static Hydra and the static Heavy AA gun. One offering weight in fire, the other offering a single longer ranged shot.

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That is also true of the Daemon Prince - and that has even better armour! Now, if you are going to ban them on this basis, you will definitely get my vote

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