Chroma

I really do not know how to take your statement so I will believe that it is all in good measure.

Have you read any of my ideas? If anyone is playing "gotcha" it is you with your back and forth statements that are not addressing the issue.

Just to summarise my ideas:

1. Keep Factions as they are
2. Remove Factions altogether
3. Price the Covens at 225 points with Daemonic Pact + Keep factions as they are

Have you yourself provided anything to counterbalance the ideas?

I only bother replying because I give a damn. Why does everything have to come back to a personal affront with people?

In fact, I think I have been only one of a few that have contributed ideas to this debate in 6 pages.

In light of the above, do you really think your statement is warranted?

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This is the "gotcha" I'm referring to.  The Faction rule change has nothing to do with "spam" lists.

There are two "issues" in discussion here:

1) Steve53 has asked that an "all hated Factions" rule of 15cm be playtested... not that things be theoryhammered or argued about, and that this is the direction he'd like to see tested.  As of today, I don't believe I've seen any battle reports or playtests posted using this change.  I've got a game scheduled for Friday, so I'll be trying it out.

This has nothing to do with balancing the perceived problems with the list, though it may address some; it's there to address the limitations of the list in regard to the "common pairings" of the two, older version, non-hatred gods, and getting a more diverse array of armies out there.

As I've said previously, this rules change has actually encouraged me to try a "three (plus one) Faction list", something I wouldn't have considered with the old rules.  To me, that's a good change.

--

2) We are looking to see what *other* issues and problems people may be experiencing with the Cultists list; again few people actually play the list, so there is a low amount of data to go one, but there still seems to be rumbling complaints, particularly with "spam" issues; the Factions rule change has nothing to do with this.

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OK, perspective is a good thing so thank you for providing this. It all came across very differently from your last post.

The title for the thread is Factions and that is why I was addressing this.

I, like you, am testing the list to provide feedback as well. My results will come from games and examples, and maybe some photos, rather than full-out battle reports I think.

The Factions rule before prevented 2 types of forces mingling. This rule is effecting all the different factions. Happy to playtest it, yet please understand that like others here with more experience with the list than you and I, and I also entitled to an opinion.  

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So spamming is supposed to be the issue here?

The what is done about IG Inf/Sentinels spam, SM scout spam et al?

Is this a problem with LatD? Is it a problem at all? I don´t remember hearing about multitudes of covens being a problem, as a matter of fact, I struggle getting more than 8-9 activations on the board as I happen to like going for support and Covens with added features. As probably 95% of us do.

If this is a problem a tournaments (don´t think so), I´d ask the respective player showing up with a an abusive list to call his parents to pick him up as he is misplaced among adults and his feelings might get hurt.


No need to hamstring perfectly sane lists IMO.

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The Faction rule change has *NOTHING* to do with "spamming".

Spamming is a *different* issue, and a horde of Covens drowning an enemy force in a sea of bodies is a perfectly plausible approach to how a Cultist army might work... doesn't mean it's fun to play against or balanced for competitive play, but that doesn't mean such an army is "childish" by any means, but it does raise the question as to whether the Tournament List should allow or encourage such an approach.

But, that is a discussion for a different thread as there's been the mistaken belief that the Faction rule change has something to do with preventing spamming: it does not.

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I am not even buying into the LatD overpowered issue in the first place.

I keep struggling with LatD while I get good results with BL, SM or Eldar.

Might be me playing Khorne+Allies armies with no Land Transports (no models, probably like most people), maybe something is wrong with multi-LT-mobilized Covens and Slaanesh scout titans and nothing else then?

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I've only heard them being spoken of as overpowered in the context of mech. coven spam backed with scout titans.....

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I agree, a "balanced" Cultist army is going to struggle to have more than nine activations; once you start adding upgrades and such, the points are soon devoured.

That's why I'm asking what *other* problems, besides "spam", there are with the list... so far, I haven't seen any brought up!

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The overall win-record of the army is suspiciously high on the stats we have available, and as E&C says, multiple mech coverns with scout titan support are a common successful tournament build.

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IMHO we should try to divorce Factions from the relative power of BL vs LatD. For what its worth, without Factions I suggest that LatD is potentially slightly underpowered while the BL may be slightly overpowered (my opinion anyway).

To me the real question is whether we should be encouraging mixed or mono Faction armies, which seems to be more a question of 'fluff' and personal style or taste.

Personally, I prefer the way that the original rules encourage limited mixing of factions, not least because that presents the players with choices to make. However, the wording has always been a problem. As such I would prefer that we found some alternative set of words while retaining the 30cm rule, or perhaps just stating that units can only be drawn from particular factions.

My 2C anyway

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Really? I'll admit to not having a ton of experience with either, but with the removal of the factions I can't see BL being boosted. At the moment, taking varying factions is only necessary if you want differing types of Daemons, Cult Marines upgrades, and more than 2 Daemon Princes. Varied Daemons would be nice, but still not groundbreaking, I'm yet to see more than one set of Cult Marines (Noise), and Daemon Princes with the recent nerf, couldn't give a toss. Whereas LatD have to devote several Covens just to gain access to some of the more varied support crews.

Morgan Vening

I don't mind if the faction rule gets changed or not, either way I'll play the list.

As for the list being overpowered.
When looking at the stats for the LandD at Epic-UK if you take of my results the overall stats are.
5 wins 4 loses and 4 draws , that looks OK to me.



The covens are on par with ork mobs for cost and effectiveness,they too could be popcorned and you would get the same 15 formations.

When adding in the LT's you are then down 11 activations with 140 points lef, that doesn't seem to be a popcorn list at all to me.

Who else has managed to win a tournament with this kind of list. In fact when has this been brought up before ?

If a list that does well at a tournament is to be considered overpowered then I'm afraid as well as LandD there's Black Legion,Imperial Guard,Codex Marines and White Scars to take into account and hopefully a few more lists after the new season gets under way   .

Hmm.  all this argument about popcorn spam is making me think of an idea based on my own troubles trying to build smaller lists in prep for Adepticon.  I'm going to pose my idea in a new thread.

If this Faction rule seems to be still to much of a negative i again propose  a +1 Initiative bonus on certain Faction specific actions.

But you will notice that it is difficult to find one action for every Faction which matches a certain Chaos God perfectly.
But you don't. Notable is that the traditionally hated Factions have very similar defining/typical abilities but are diametrally opposite in the way those abilities work/appear.

Khorne/Slaanesh: Both followers of these Factions revel in the sensations of close quarter fighting.
Followers of Khorne favours the physical act of close quarter fighting as they butcher their victims in hand-to-hand comnbat and takign skulls for the Skull Throne.
Followers of Slaanesh favours the psychical sensations of close quarter fighting. Revelling in the sensory experience where the fighting is thickest and going extatic with each new stroke/shot.
So i find that both followers of Khorne and followers of Slaanesh should gain a +1 bonus for Engage action tests to represent their eagernesss to experience their favoured means of fighting.

Tzeentch/Nurgle: Both followers of these Factions excelin endurance.
Followers of Tzeentch can psychically withstand the perils of the battlefield because they are granted visions of the future, have magical spells to communicate over distances without any interference and can avoid harm by bending the laws of reality.
Followers of Nurgle can physically withstand the perils of the battlefield. They can take wounds which would be mortal for other beings, they don't feel pain, they are outright tough so that they don't care very much what happens to their bodies.
So i find that both followers of Tzeentch and followers of Nurgle should gain a +1 bonus for Marshall action tests to represent their persistence and relentlessness in battle.

Thoughts?

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