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Black Legion rules review
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:40 am 
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Because in Wh40k Chaos Terminators have to use their Leadership value and Obliterators have no use for it because they are Fearless. :D

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:44 am 
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(BlackLegion @ May 28 2008,01:04)
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I really think we need a new abikity to represent what Fearless means in Wh40k.
Fearless in Epic and Fearless in Wh40k are two totally different abilities.

As you stated fearless is different in 40k to epic.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:47 am 
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Yes. But for now it is used for both.
Sometimes in the future we should develop something more appropiate.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:49 am 
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A direct mapping of 'fearless' from 40k would be:

'Never takes blast markers, cannot become broken under any circumstances, is not immune to post-Engagement 'hackdown' hits'.




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dptdexys
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:50 am 
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What do Oblitorators have in 40k that makes them fearless in epic.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:51 am 
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Yes something like this. But still vulnerable to hackdown hits.
I still would allow Blastmarkers, because this is a concept not represented at all in Wh40k (but Pinning and the new 5th Edition rule "Get Down" does something similar).

@dptdexys: Well..actually the Wh40k version of Fearless which makes them immune to any psychological effects. Fearless units inWh40k are either so level headed that they base decisions on clearly logical basis like a Star Trek Vulcanian, or are so crazed that they don't care what happens around them even if it means certain death.




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dptdexys
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:02 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ May 28 2008,11:51)
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Yes something like this. But still vulnerable to hackdown hits.
I still would allow Blastmarkers, because this is a concept not represented at all in Wh40k (but Pinning and the new 5th Edition rule "Get Down" does something similar).

@dptdexys: Well..actually the Wh40k version of Fearless which makes them immune to any psychological effects. Fearless units inWh40k are either so level headed that they base decisions on clearly logical basis like a Star Trek Vulcanian, or are so crazed that they don't care what happens around them even if it means certain death.

Thanks BL
That helps me understand the reason better,but if they are vulnerable to hackdowns in 40k shouldn't they be vulnerable to them in epic.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Ok some Wh40k lessons here :D
If one side in an closecombat suffers more casualties thanthe other side then it has to make a Leadership test. If it passes the CC goes on, if it looses then they will run with the possibility to be catched up by the winners and hacked down to the last man.
Fearless Wh40k units don't need to roll Leadership. They automatically pass so they will never run from a lost CC. But if the winner has superior numbers the loosing Fearless units can get extra wounds based on how badly they are outnumbered.

Impriotand. Regardess of Fearles or not: A unit cought in CC CAN'T voluntarily leave it. It has to win, be whiped out or manage to run away after a failed Leadership test because of loosing the current round of CC.

If a unit receives 25% casualties of it current strength due to shooting in one shooting-pase they have to pass a Leadership test. If failed they withdraw and have a chance torally in the next turn unless they have less than 25% of their startiung strength.
Fearless Wh40k units ignore this Leadership test. They automatically pass regardless how badly they are shot up.

Pinning causes a unit to get down if they fail a Ledership test. They can't shoot and/ormove for the turn ebcause the get their head downs out of harms way.
Fearless Wh40k units ignore this.

Clear now? :)




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:21 pm 
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This is the point. Commissars aren't Fearless in Wh40k either. But their effect on the Squad they lead is something similar (if the Squad failes a Leadership test they execute the leading officer and lead themselve. The test is then considered passed :D ).

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Magarch
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:27 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 27 2008,16:03)
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I pulled the AA out separately in my comparison.  It doesn't work anything like other ranged fire, so trying to lump it in doesn't make sense.  As pointed out, in a Chosen formation the AA is simply a token ability.

If you remove their AA ability, true, the Obliterators aren't so unbalanced for their price.

So, plain solution is just removing the AA from them and putting it elsewhere - like that Defiler Lord Inquisitor was talking about.  :D
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:56 pm 
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From the WP CC Thread:
====

E&C>Both players normally invest heavily in Nurgle Daemons as meat shields.

Interesting.  I've thought that would probably work as long as you don't mind being slow.  How effective do you guys find this?

Pity about the WE-focused lists.

Placing 3 and 6 out of 14 isn't domination but it seems pretty consistent with the other tourney results I've seen.  The BL with heavy WE composition are consistently in the top half.  Also, it's against the intended "horde" style of the list.

How do you guys think the results would have differed if Steve had to cut ~135 points and Nathan had to cut 105 points and reconfigure to less than 1/3 on WEs?  Would that be enough to bring them down?

That would be the results of my suggested "tournament mod" changes for the BL list:
+25 x 3 Ferals, +5 x6 Chosen, and +10 x3 Obliterators for Steve = +135
+25 x2 Ferals, +25 for one Decimator, and +5 x6 Chosen for Nathan = +105 (plus the 1/3 restriction)

Those are based on what it looks like is in the pics.  I might be off on the count (probably am), but it seems like that would probably be enough to make a noticeable dent - 4.5% of points in the former, and 3.5 plus re-org in the latter.


As a second thought experiment, how would it have been different with Lord_I's changes from the top of the thread.  There would be no point changes (unless there are Raptors I can't make out in the pics).  Nathan's list would have had to be re-jiggered for WEs, and all the Ferals would have been non-MW.

Would that make enough difference to bring them in line?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:25 pm 
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I think you are a bit off on Nathans list. It was from memory

245 Raptor Cult x 7
025 Demonic Pact
300 Feral
300 Feral
225 Decimator
075 Defilier
275 Death Wheel
125 Forlorn hope
020 Rhinos x 2
275 Black Legion Retinue
075 Obliterator
025 Demonic Pact
275 Black Legion Retinue
150 Obliterator x 2
025 Demonic Pact
275 Black Legion Retinue
040 Rhinos x 4
025 Demonic Pact
180 Demons x 9

Then one unit had augment summon or demonic focus, can't remember which.

I guess to absorb the changes the decimator would become 4 preds and a defiler (save 25 points, should do it anyway really!), the raptors would become six strong, umm anything else needed? (currently with those changes at 3005 points)




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:00 pm 
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Well, I didn't actually put the Decimator change in my suggestions, so that comes out to 115 instead of 105 plus changing to fit the 1/3.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:10 pm 
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So change decimator to preds and lose a oblit or couple of raptors to make 3000? Not that great a change.

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