http://www.geocities.com/eoinwhelan/chaosAA.htm

The above are datafaxes for the units that are new or will be extensively changed during the full review. They're in webpage format for people to discuss, once the proper playtest changes are decided upon, I'll prepare a playtest PDF.

No points values yet, let's just take the stats as they are now and worry about points later. These are simply "what I think they should be" without much consideration for game balance (although the defiler and desecrator are meant to be equivalent). For the new units I've given them a little fluff blurb to give some explanation for the stats.

Oh, and the harbinger is in there too: it will probably just be in the collectors section, but I thought we might as well have a look at it now anyway!

Shouldn't the Defiler's Flamers be Ignore Cover?

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Looks all tasty and testable

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Me like, now only if i can find time to finish those Defilers/Desecrators Otterman sent me...

I like the stats, but what is the desecrator?

Also the aircraft stats are only viable if all races air forces go to "true stat", otherwise they will out range other craft that have similar ranges in background.

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Tyranid air marshal

The Hellblade with those stats is a great fighter, far superior when intercepting to the Orks and Imperials - just look at the thunderbolt. It has superior range making the lack of armour far less of a problem. Is it intentional? I thought hellblades were light fighters? Still prefer twin reaper, AP3+/AT5+/AA5+. You can get squadrons of three very cheaply then to and they become a great alternative to flak. Otherwise if you are dead set make it AA6+ at least, that's still on average 2/3's of a hit per fighter (better than Thunderbolts at 30cm).

And wouldn't the heavy flamers be ignore cover and small arms ignore cover?

As to the stalker random fire is a real bugger, if only having an extra roll inserted into the game. What's wrong with just 2 shots? Or if you want the 'unpredictable' effect lots of shots hitting on a 6+ (4 at 6+ being the same on average as 2 at 5+ but giving greater variation)).

Havoc launcher - I thought it was on par with a frag launching system - is it better?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Game experience has been pretty positive about both aircraft so far.

Have you tried them in a game?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Way back when all this was first gone over.

I'm not surprised they are good, they are better than Imperials and Orks at interceptions and point for point better in intercepts (not as good in CAP where an alpha strike is key) than Eldar.

I though the intention was for a light fighter, not an air superiority one? Or has the fluff changed? Who should as it were win in a fight - a helltalon, thunderbolt or fighter bomber?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I would refer you back to the testing comments here and on the SG site as your implication doesn't seem to be in sync with the comments from people testing the units.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

There are definitively two camps of people about airpower. Those who get planes to perform excellently and those who don't. I've been frankly stunned by some peoples loss rates for aircraft when they aren't facing fighters. Conversely I've seen the UK tournies slowly creep from only me with thunderbolts to now everyone with thunderbolts, and I've actually started having mine shot down (before I had total air superiority), as confidence has grown and people have got better at ground attacks and intercepts. With the Marauder change you will see a lot more airpower being used now.

Not having to close to 15cm and being able to dance around flak as a fighter with 30cm range means they get in far less danger than even my fearful thunderbolts. If they match up they can often wipe out the thunderbolts in one round of firing with the thunderbolts in comparison getting one kill. And of course with three planes you can make a fan of aircraft giving a 180 degree 30cm flak screen (backed up with ground or other air flak behind).

Another concern for me is to if possible have them at low points, so its possible to take a Banelord and squadron for cover in a 3000 point game (something all lists should be able to do!).

I should ask what points are you testing them at?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Yes, yes they should. But no small arms as I want it to match the siegemasters (unless that is to be changed in siegemasters TRC?)

I amenable to the twin reaper idea or just reducing their range to 15cm and accepting the wierdness of aircraft if necessary. 15cm is ideal because I don't like the idea of an interceptor that doesn't have to come within defensive flack range, but it's annoying not to use the actual range of the weapon. Everyone okay with the lascannon just being a flat 30cm range? It's annoying but I think its the simplest and best solution to the lascannon.

The way to reduce it to 15cm and show the manoeuvrability of the beast would be to give it a 360 shot.

And the siegemasters were certainly proposed to have changes. Certainly in the Salamanders list its been done on the assumption all the twin heavy flamers at least get small arms ignore cover.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Meaning what exactly? We shouldn't pay attention to your results because you're good at using aircraft?

If you have some game experience with these stats then please share them and if not then perhaps you can save the "theoryhammer" until we see some game results and need conjecture.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

They were all posted when we did, though this is now going back a long way (when did these first come up? During Black legion testing at the end?).

Essentially some people are not very good at using aircraft - those that are used to using them get vastly more back. They have a steep learning curve and somewhat strangely in Epic require assistance from ground units more than ground units need them. I think you get a stronger division between those who think stuff like thunderbolts and co are rubbish and those who always have at least one squadron.

Just because a bunch of people say they are fine does not in my experience equate to them actually being good when used by players who regularly use airpower and fit the background for the unit (case in point Tau Barracudas, been developed for ages to the point where they are now very far off their background which can be summed up as slower more more manoeuvrable imperial fighters with comparable firepower (actually worse in BFG), instead have more firepower than any other flier and a big weapons load - but hey people still find them weak apparently and want their save raised).

With 'el helltalon how good would you say they were? As I said above one on one who would win out of the talon vs the thunderbolt or the fighterbomber?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Play some games and tell us

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.