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Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Developmental]

 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:33 pm 
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That was GW’s approach to how lists were designed for EA. *shrug*

It’s not something that was chosen afterwards by the fans.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:54 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
That was GW’s approach to how lists were designed for EA. *shrug*

It’s not something that was chosen afterwards by the fans.


Sure. But it's been ages since Games Workshop supported this game. We're not bound by their design choices.


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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:55 pm 
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Anyway... I'm afraid I managed to completely derail the topic. Sorry 'bout that.

So... Is any idea of a Chaos Titan list dead?


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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:06 pm 
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f2k wrote:
I can see the point with theme lists. And they can be very interesting.

But they do present a big big problem: if you're not interested in a particular theme, then there's no army for you. Well... Make your own, then. Yeah... Sure... But given the glacial speed of getting new lists approved for official release, then...

I guess my point is that I feel the development of this game has been turned upside-down. You should always start with generic lists, then specialise them into themed lists with their own particular weaknesses and strengths.

Anyway... That is, of course, just my own preference. :-)



You need to remember that EA from the inception as a published game has had a heavy emphasis on list balance, a rarity for something with the name GW on it. This is demonstrably backed up with literally decades of recorded tournament data. Generic anythings become functionally impossible to balance in that manner as the numbers of permutations for combinations becomes effectively impossible to reason out and eliminate broken combinations and situational power gaming. Even with 20 years of recorded data, we still occasionally find insane whacko combinations that are so gamey and have been there for so long as to blow your mind (Dan's Thunder-F!ck list is a great example of that).

It's however not something that you can't still scratch your itch for other stuff either. JJ wrote wrote right in the EA book that if you want to change something, then do it (with the agreement from your opponent obviously). Related to this is exactly why we have things like fan-lists published by the community here for doing weird forces or combinations of things (see the Sarens Expanse Crusade list for a totally fun but never going to be balanced so don't be TFG when using Marines + Guard list for example. Likewise my own Raptors Legion Ambush list which is a mixed force of Marines and limited Guard contingent).

Likewise, way back when I was the Marine Army Champion here I also recognized that some people would still want something resembling a relatively cogent structure for a somewhat generic everything and the kitchen sink for beer and pretzel gaming so I crafted the literal Kitchen-Sink list for Astartes. I had hoped that it would have inspired something similar for other faction ACs to of done (especially Guard and Chaos) but sadly no one did. However that may be an option for you in a friendly environment.

Anyways, even on a dead list development thread, I feel we've gone rather off the rails here and such a discussion would be better served by Necroing one of the numerous threads we already have on this topic elsewhere instead of cocking this one up further.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:20 pm 
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f2k wrote:
So... Is any idea of a Chaos Titan list dead?


I think conceptually it isn't dead but there's two glaring problems here that looking back from experience I can see that stand out:

1. is that AMTL actually cover the gambit of Legio, loyalist and traitor, very well already. Similarly, and in my opinion far more entertaining, is the EpicUK's Codex Adeptus Titanicus list (even though it probably needs some updating and balancing). Current AT18 game is a great example of how far you can go without resorting to 'but chaos'. (my Warp Runners often get fielded under other Legio because paint != rules :D )

2. It's not well defined what actually constitutes 'chaos titans' here in a functional ad thematic sense. Basically the list doesn't have a 'mission statement' that is actionable and can be used to judge the efficacy of any trial and suggestions. Basically 'Titans but with spikes and evil' isn't actually anything but window dressing [looks at the absolute disaster that Codex Chaos Knights was]

Because this is a dead list I'd say give it a mission statement in 2-3 clear actionable sentences here and lets see what comes out.

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 Post subject: Re: Traitor Titan Legions (TTL) v2.2 and v2.31b [Development
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:58 pm 
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As you might have gathered, I have some misgivings about the philosophy behind the current development of new lists and updating old lists with new units. But yes, you're right. This is better suited for another time and place. Again, sorry about derailing it. Me bad...

As for actionable sentences... Well...

Let me just quickly preface it by saying that while I appreciate the new Titanicus titans I have no interest in the 30K setting at all. So I'm approaching this from a 40K perspective.

So... Let me try. Feel free to slap me down. I haven't actually played this game much lately, nor have I ever fielded a full titan legion, so I'm just throwing out some quick thoughts without having tested them on the tabletop at all. At least, not yet, but I'm willing to give it a try.

1) Organized Chaos.

Special titans like the Banelord or Plaguelord should be part of the respective Chaos Legion lists. These are titans that have surrendered entirely to a particular aspect of Chaos and are no longer part of a larger titan legion.

Instead, the list should represent a more organised titan legion. A legion that is able to support and coordinate multiple titan maniples. Daemons might be bound into individual titans, but they haven't yet surrendered entirely to the madness of Chaos.

2) Same, but different.

The list should resemble the loyalist counterpart. A titan maniple supported by various units.

However, there are differences. Chaos, as I see it, is a bit more bloodthirsty and up-close-and.personal army. These are mad titans that likes the carnage they wreck on the battlefield. This should be reflected by the rules and upgrades available. Weapons are broadly similar, but with new options like tails, snarling battle heads, and tentacles. Furthermore, it should reflect a more chaotic approach to army building. Some titans might carry a Mark of Chaos and can function as icons for daemon summoning. Others might have hordes of slaves massing around their feets. I'm not going for something new and revolutionary, just a slightly different flavour (think Space Marines versus Chaos Marines - same, but different).

3) Dark Mechanicus.

This would also be an opportunity to update the general Mechanicus roster. I'm mindful of what you said about generalised armies being open to abuse, but I do think Mechanicus armies in general are badly outdated. As such, the army should contain a more updated unit selection, though always in a supporting role.

That's how I see a Chaos titan legion operating in the 40K setting. Daemonic and chaotic, certainly. But also disciplined enough to function as a coherent force. Chaos is a tool. A useful weapon. Something you might barter with, but not something you surrender to.


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