I do not find the new DP not even worth its cost (~120-150) in most cases..
(btw, DP does not have invulnerable save)

But yes that 3+ RA and fearless could become major pain as if made as SC there is practically no easy to way to get rid of that SC reroll after the formation has broken, the DP can just lurk in some cover out of sight of heavier weapons..

I would not mind 0-1 limitation in the entire army. Especially that 'undivided DP' in addition to 2 cult ones is a bit cheezy...

Is the 3+ RA daemon prince even seen that often? Perhaps in drop formations, terminators (which are already nearly as tough and hit almost as hard) or the like, but it can't really keep up with anything else, since it can't ride a rhino. And it's easier to get the winged version into close combat anyhow.

If it's so bad, you could just remove the wingless option completely, since there's no model for one...  

In the last 2 UK tournaments there were 5 chaos armies, all of which had at least one DP.
Some with chosen and others in dreadclaw equipped retinues.

Ok, just doing a little min-maxing army building, does anyone see anything wrong with the following (IMO very broken) list?

Black Legion
2x Chosen Marines (4x units)        = 970
- updgrade 2x Oblits
- upgrade pact
- upgrade Daemon Prince

3x Retinue (9 units)                       = 1275
- upgrade 1x Oblit
- upgrade pact
- upgrade Daemon Prince

1x Assault company (2x Wheels) = 550 (BTS)

Daemon pool                                   = 200
  10x lesser daemons      
                                          total = 2995

Providing 30 'squishy' units and 20 units worth of very 'Hard' fearless units (ignoring the 10 daemons)

Notes
The chosen are Slanesh and Khorne, the retinues are Nurgle, Tzeench and "undivided". One Daemon Prince in the retinues is designated as the Supreme commander.

The strategy is to play the two chosen dropping around the enemy blitz, the wheels supported by the retinues to control the centre and defend the blitz. The undivided daemons will be summoned as a meat shield, probably favouring the chosen and rearmost retinue.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Well, that army has like 6 activations. Ginger, little AT firepower and apart from the Death Wheels, no mobility.

Any half-decent opponent with a regular army will screen against your teleports and destroy them piecemeal when you can no longer hold them back (since you start with 4 onboard formations). You´ll have a grand total of 3 formations on the frontline in the beginning as you have to hold a formation slightly rearwards to protect your Blitz.

I predict you´ll be flanked on at least one side, crossfired, artillerized and eventually assaulted out of your positions. Keeping the formations that hate each other apart sounds nice on paper but won´t work since you need concentration of force to achieve anything, losing your initiative bonus.

I would not fear such an army.

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

I agree with Irondeath's assessment.  That has lots of weaknesses.

_________________
Neal

I don't disagree with the principles behind the assessments, but am not sure that you are right. While the list has obvious weaknesses, there are a lot of strengths too - like no armour means AT shots are wasted, the troops can garrison and start on OW making them even harder to hit, half the army is fearless and the 1+ initiative means it will rally very easily (I would suggest that you should also be able to keep the undivided retinue and the Wheels between the hated factions preserving the '1+' initiative). The ridiculous AA capability of the Oblits should be proof against most air assaults, while the BL assault stats should compensate at least in part for the minimal anti-armour capability. As for screening the teleports, they would probably drop into cover away from enemy forces anyway - it is a convienient mechanism for putting up a forwards defense screen at the start of the game, so in football parlance there would be a 2,3,1 formation across the centre of the table.

The whole point to the list is to demonstrate its ridiculous capability for absorbing punishment while maintaining a significant threat throughout the game - and five Daemon Princes together with 7 Obliterators, the Wheels and the ability to summon screening daemons should make it hard if not impossible for the enemy to be able knock out more than two of the formations in the game with the constant threat of the broken formations rallying and jumping on something else(or claiming objectives).

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

iniative rating is 2+ .... or isnt it anymore???

official

keep us "normal" players updated also if you do such a changes...

_________________
"Speed, and still more speed, and always speed was the secret...
and that demanded audacity, more audacity and always audacity"

Yes initiative is 2+ but you get +1 as long as no hated factions are within 30cms IIRC. So by designing your list your army is effectively initiative 1+.

Play it then. If this list is overpowered then prove it by playing some games with it.

Otherwise this is a rather theoretical discussion. And "theoryhammer" on its own is useless.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Very few activations and little speed are not a good combination, also it gambles a lot on winning initiative - something which you really cannot rely on with Chaos.

In my experience DPs are better on paper than in game - if you use them outside of terminators then you are better off using rhinos which means you need the winged option (4+) as then at least you have a chance of getting in base to base. Then you have the same problems as marines though - the rhinos get shot away.
The only real way to use them is with termies - and then you need to hope to play a lot of IG (initiative) - and even then with the new scout rules/errata targets are usually screened off with scouts

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Actually, "no armour" means all dedicated AT-fire will be directed at the Deathwheels, which doesn´t bode well for your sole mobile assets.

That list just is not going to work, it´s advantages are few and can be replicated by more balanced lists, having a DP and Oblits in most formations sure makes them tough and Fearless but also slow and costly. That army is decidedly lacking in force projection capability, if I was up against it I would basically smirk, deploy my objectives Blitz center, T&Hs to either side as close to the edge as possible and then maneuver to crossfire the most exposed retinue and nail the Deathwheels early.

The Chosen will be fighting uphill as well, you may have noticed that you have zero ability to place a BM to prep assaults, meaning that you are likely at -2 resolution from the get-go.

I´d be surprised if that army makes it into Turn 3 with more than 3 activations, expect a sound defeat on objectives alone...

As pixelgeek said, play the list.

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

I think my friend can field that Army, I'll see if he will give it a go to get more opinions.

Chaos vs Minervans, we'll see how tough you are when my AT weapons are worthless!

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Unless you want to build an army that uses hated factions the effective value is 1+. This is one of the reasons why there have been calls to remove the Hated factions rules. It really does nothing.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Indeed. I would like to remove this altogether and just make all CSM formations Initiative 1+.