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[New Guy] Iron Legion
drl
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:06 pm 
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Hi all; long time lurker here.

So I was thinking about what to do for a fourth army, since my Guard, Blood Angels and Titan Legions are all up at about 10,000 points and therefore I can probably quit buying stuff for them (well, after the Baneblades I just ordered, anyway). And I thought, as one does, about Chaos, but my favorite legion - for both fluff and painting ease reasons - the Iron Warriors, doesn't seem to have a fan list yet.

So here's my shot; I'm basing it strongly off the Black Legion, and trying to introduce as little new stuff as possible. Feedback is, naturally, appreciated.

Iron Warriors as a Departure from the Black Legion: basically, with the changes below, replace all instances of "Black Legion" with "Iron Warriors" and use the Black Legion list as-is.

Strategy 4, Initiative 1+ (as Black Legion, with no Hated formations)

1. All formations must belong to Chaos Undivided
- Therefore, the only daemons available to the army are Daemonic Beasts, and Cult Marines are unavailable.

2. The following formations are changed
- Raptor Cult: Unavailable
- Iron Warriors Bike Company: Unavailable
- Iron Warriors Armored Company: may include up to 2 Vindicators for 50 points each, respecting maximum formation size of 8
- Iron Warriors Assault Company: 0-2 restriction is removed

3. The following upgrades are changed
- Obliterators: Up to 4 Obliterators may be taken
- Dreadclaws: Unavailable
- Cult Marines: Unavailable, as noted above

4. The following new formations are allowed
- 0-2 Iron Warriors Artillery Batteries: 4 Basilisks for 325 points, as per the Lost and the Damned list
- 0-1 Obliterator Cult per Iron Warriors Retinue: 4 Obliterators for 300 points

5. The following new upgrades are allowed
- Vindicators: up to 2 Vindicators for 50 points each (available to Iron Warriors Chosen and Iron Warriors Retinue formations)
- Fortified Positions: as per Baran Siege Masters, 100 points for up to 500mm of trenches and 500mm of razor wire, plus up to 4 gun emplacements or bunkers (available to Iron Warriors Chosen, Iron Warriors Retinue, and Iron Warriors Artillery Battery). May not be taken together with Rhinos.

Notes
Vindicator costs are based on regular Black Legion Predators. Numbers are intentionally limited, what with a formation of 8 MW tanks probably being a no-brainer and/or broken.

I?m still debating the inclusion of air support and removal of Dreadclaws. They have to be able to get planetside somehow, after all. Not having them seems more in-character with the legion, though.

Do the Iron Warriors use daemons at all? I figured that since all they had available were Beasts anyway, it wasn?t such a huge point for now.

Should I raise the cost of the Artillery Batteries (to take into account the improved initiative over the L&D) and/or Obliterator Cult?

Thanks in advance! With any luck, I'll be able to start some playtesting before too long as well.
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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:36 pm 
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Welcome aboard, drl.  :cool:

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:50 pm 
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Welcome aboard.

the Iron Warriors, doesn't seem to have a fan list yet.


There are several, actually.  Most are materially similar to what you posted - no raptors, extra obliterators, artillery and vindicators added, fortifications and/or anti-fortification ability sometimes added.

I would leave in aircraft and dreadclaws.  To me, both are in keeping with the "bomb the living snot out of them" IW ethos.

IW can summon daemons per the 40K rules and the background (one of the books) includes them allied with Khornate forces.  There is justification for leaving in summoning ability, but some have made arguments that not having summoning is really a better fit.

===

Edit:  Plus, what Hena said about the assault company.  "Popcorn" forces of individual Decimators were shown to be savagely broken during BL playtesting.  If you want to remove the restriction, the points should be re-evaluated.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:01 pm 
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I might suggest:

Iron Warriors Assault Company: 3 Decimators for 650 points or 3 Death Wheels for 800 points.

This avoids popcorn problems but doesn't restrict the number of formations they get. They get a very slight (25 point in both cases) price break compared to the Black Legion due to their lesser flexibility. Also seems more fitting with a group which's primary ethos is 'blow them to bits, then blow the bits to littler bits'.
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drl
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:45 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback, folks. I hadn't realized there were other lists - any links? I couldn't find them with Search, anyway.

I have no particular emotional investment in removing the restriction on Assault Companies, so it could stay or go - just seemed flavorful. I do like the idea of forcing 3 in a formation as a countermeasure, though.

Whirlwinds vs Basilisks: Whirlwinds at 300 points also have ATSKNF, though, which looks like it usually runs about 25 points per model for AVs. Which means Chaos Whirlwinds, if such a thing existed, would be closer to 200 points for 4, right? (Not exactly, I imagine, but I think the point holds). I'm not sure how list design theory counts things like this, though, I admit.

Leaving Dreadclaws in - actually, thinking about it, since you also have formations with fortified positions, having drop pods as well seems like a workable idea.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:45 pm 
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A guy in my gaming group has painted up an IW army and is looking for a good list. :)

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:07 am 
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I'd say Hellfire Cannons from LATD would be a good option for Iron Warriors as well.

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drl
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:51 pm 
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Something that occurs to me as I think about war engines and obliterators and what-not: Is there any particular reason the BL didn't go with the Space Marine / Steel Legion / Eldar method of force organization, with core and support formations? Because I'm thinking that my IW list might work a bit better if it looks something like this:

Core Formations
- Iron Warriors Retinue

Support Formations (2 per Retinue)
- Chosen
- Forlorn Hope
- Armored Company (maybe make this Core, since it's on the one hand flavorful but on the other apparently sub-optimal)
- Artillery Battery
- Obliterator Cult
- Assault Company (and we could now maybe keep it at 1-3 vehicles per formation)

Air and Titan Support (33%)
- and maybe put spaceships in here too, since there's a lot of Support Formations up there

plus the Daemon Pool, which is its own special little thing


Seems to me this would keep the list more or less infantry-centric, allow you do drop the non-scaling 0-1 and 0-2 restrictions, and keep crazy things like Obliterator Spam in check. How would this affect balance in a BL-inspired list?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:57 pm 
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How would this affect balance in a BL-inspired list?


It would possibly make it better.

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drl
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:22 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 20 2007,14:57)
QUOTE
How would this affect balance in a BL-inspired list?


It would possibly make it better.

Well, then, woot!

Here's the list I'll playtest (I'll call it 1.1 just to make it sound official). Points and formations are as per BL unless otherwise noted.

Strategy Rating 4, Initiative 1+

You may buy formations from the following 4 categories, with restrictions as noted. All formations must be dedicated to Chaos Undivided.

1. Core Formations

- Iron Warriors Retinue (available upgrades as Black Legion Retinue, minus Cult Marines, plus Fortified Positions and Vindicators)
- Iron Warriors Armored Company (as per Black Legion, save that it may include up to 2 Vindicators at 50 points each)

2. Daemon Pool

- as all formations must be dedicated to Chaos Undivided, only Lesser Daemons are available, and in practice these will all be Daemonic Beasts.

3. Support Formations (2 per Core Formation)

- Iron Warriors Chosen (available upgrades as Black Legion Chosen, plus Fortified Positions and Vindicators)
- Iron Warriors Forlorn Hope (exactly as per Black Legion)
- Iron Warriors Artillery Battery (4 Basilisks for 350 points, no upgrades available - it may make sense to allow them to take Fortified Positions, though)
- Iron Warriors Assault Company (exactly as per Black Legion)
- Obliterator Cult (4 Obliterators for 300 points, no upgrades available - this price may have to come up, since they're a bit more flexible on their own, but I think I'll playtest a bit first)

4. Air Support, Titans and Spacecraft (up to 33% of total points)

- all choices exactly as per Black Legion, although I'm sorely tempted to figure out stats for the Aeronautica Imperialis Harbinger.

New and changed Upgrades
- Fortified Positions: as per Siege Masters (but with fewer bunkers), 100 points for 500 mm of trenches and 500 mm of razorwire, plus 4 bunkers or gun emplacements. Replaces the formation's transport where applicable.
- Vindicators: up to 2 Vindicators for 50 points each
- Obliterators: up to 4 may be taken

It may be a few weeks before I get any playtesting done, but if anyone else wants to have a go I'd love to hear results!
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Ilushia
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:36 pm 
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As a note: Standard Space Marines don't have core/support formations. Just formations and upgrades. It's an organizational difference between them and the IG and other armies. In terms of Black Legion and other Chaos armies, though, generally I tend to imagine them as being separate warbands ruled by different Chaos Lords who some high-Lord got together to organize a major offensive. Part of one of the Black Crusades or the first war for Armageddon or similar major Chaos attack. The ad-hoc style of the list adds to that feeling, I think, in that the Chaos marines while highly trained aren't particularly highly structured and tend to come in denominations based on how powerful the individual lords making up the army are. Not entirely unlike Orks where you've got essentially separate warbands lead by bosses who follow the one waaaagh leader.

At least, that's the way I always imagined them. In any case, basic Space Marines don't differentiate between core and support formations (Infact, until the Eldar came along all the races took their Spacecraft as part of their non-allied forces as well. And Space Marines even get access to a few aircraft which aren't allied forces!)
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drl
 Post subject: [New Guy] Iron Legion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:57 pm 
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Ah; good point on the regular Marines - that's a strange thing for me to mis-remember.

Still, since there are so many things in the Chaos list with limited availability (and more in this list I'm working on), it just seems easier and more easily scalable to go the IG / Eldar route to simulate that limited availability, rather than 0-1, 0-2 or whatever. I'm thinking of it less as strict organizational hierarchy a la the Guard and more as "the number of Obliterator cults pledging their support to the commander is a function of overall army size rather than a set number".
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