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Thousand Sons List
nealhunt	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:38 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (Heavens To Betsy @ 26 Mar. 2006 (13:49)) Firstly, the third paragraph of BL2.1 where it says formations can only have a maximum of four upgrades. Secondly, BL2.1.1.1 about only allowing the basic units in a formation (the ones you buy initially before upgrades) to have the Chaos Lord character added to them. I'm not sure that the restriction on # of upgrades is an issue for the TSons in the same way it was for the BL.  The number of upgrade options are significantly reduced and there are no options like Havocs and Cult Marines which boosted numbers like the BL had.  Also, the point cost of the core formation is 125 points higher, possibly leading to activation-count issues if someone goes too crazy with the upgrades.  I'll keep it in mind, but I'll wait on putting it in for now. On the core units bit, I actually disagreed that it was necessary even in the BL list.  I had no problem with, for example, a CSM Warlord with a bodyguard of Obliterators.  But in any case, the variety of units available to the core formations is much less than in BL and less likely to lead to potentially abusive uses.  Again, I will keep it in mind to watch but I don't think it will be a problem. Thanks for the input, and please let me know how your Rubric Terminator upgrade works out and especially the Silver Towers changes you discussed.  We're pretty much locked in on the Towers' stats as they are in the L&D and therefore set, but the information would still be quite useful. ==== I will be submitting 2.0 to Jervis and Andy either later today or tomorrow. _________________ Neal
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nealhunt	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:42 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (philipc68 @ 28 Mar. 2006 (03:02)) Could you allow 1-2 Silver Towers to be taken as support as well? I find with the E:A rules that lots of units that I used to have the minimum number for are no longer useable. Cheers Philip Do you mean as a support formation, or as an upgrade?  If the former, I don't think it would be viable.  If the latter, I can consider it, but I'm sort of inclined to keep the daemon engines operating separately.  To be honest, I'm not even that keen on having Defilers as an upgrade. _________________ Neal
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woodelf_dave	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:41 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:27 pm Posts: 72 Location: Edinburgh	Neal I`m assuming you are using the L&D / BL rules for summoning daemons. ?However in your description of what happens to summoned daemons at the end of the turn is "In the rally phase, after a formation has attempted to rally, all summoned units in the formation vanish back to the warp and are removed from play unless the formation has a unit with Daemonic Focus (see BL 1.1.5 below). Summoned units that are removed from play in this manner are put back into the Daemon Pool." Should this say "not put back into the Daemon Pool" as it does in the other Chaos lists ?
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nealhunt	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:47 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (woodelf_dave @ 29 Mar. 2006 (21:41)) "In the rally phase, after a formation has attempted to rally, all summoned units in the formation vanish back to the warp and are removed from play unless the formation has a unit with Daemonic Focus (see BL 1.1.5 below). Summoned units that are removed from play in this manner are put back into the Daemon Pool." Should this say "not put back into the Daemon Pool" as it does in the other Chaos lists ? Nope.  It was changed in all the lists. The driving price factor for daemons was the "daemon meat shield" tactic.  It is very effective, so it requires a relatively high per-unit cost so as to keep it in line with its abilities. However, the other kinds of daemon tactics - massive horde, pump and dump, whatever - are significantly less effective.  That meant that pretty much any tactic except the meat shield was underpowered compared to its point cost. Since meat shields require consistent on-board presence to be effective, you have to use a Focus to keep them around.  After much discussion, most of the playtesters agreed that allowing daemons to return to the pool boosted the non-meat shield tactics to the point they are viable while leaving the abilities of the meat shield essentially even. _________________ Neal
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woodelf_dave	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:16 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:27 pm Posts: 72 Location: Edinburgh	Cheers Neal, Obviously behind the times. I`ve not been keeping up with the Chaos rules as I`ve been concentrating on Eldar and my OGBM forces. I`m actually playing L&D this week coming, so that info will come in very handy.
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ortron	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 pm Posts: 681 Location: Australia	Neal, Hopefully i can get a TS game in this week. Anything in particular you would like tested? I'm scratch building some silver towers also since, A) old models hard to get & B) the aren't that attractive... If these turn out I'll make a "how to". ortron
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nealhunt	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:51 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I'd still like feedback on lots of TSons infantry and on Silver Towers.  I'm having a hard time reconciling my experiences with them versus some of the feedback I've received. Also, if you have a chance to mess with the WEs, info on them would be appreciated. _________________ Neal
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nealhunt	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:23 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	v2.0 is in the vault! Suprisingly fast turnaround from submission to post, given what has become the norm. _________________ Neal
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nealhunt	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:39 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Yes? _________________ Neal
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JOHNDRAGON	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:43 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:22 pm Posts: 13	Dear Neal I have been playing Epic Armaggedon for about 9 months but wargames for many years.I have used TS1.0 in one game,so was pleased to see your revision at TS1.0V2.0.Ihope the following comments are of some use to you. Strategy Rating:suggest adding "lesser" to"daemons"throughout.Otherwise Greater Daemons will be removed in some games. 2+Aircraft initiative rating for TS welcome by both sides;the bombers were flyihg too often on the implied 1+. Daemon Pool:there has been some confusion in usage.Because destroyed daemons are not returned to the daemon pool,adding 1d3on Strategy dr6 is something of a contradiction.To clarify,I suggest aDaemon Pool subhead,flavour text in a different font,possibly an example,and if possible a short rule outlining the primordial soup nature of the daemon pool. Clarification:Greater Daemons cost 4 summoning points,not8? Summoned daemons returning to the Daemon Pool:is this wise?Players will become confused during play on whether or not to return or eliminate daemons in the end phase. "Other units identical to Black Legion".Are the following Fearless? Raptors;Rhinos;Chaos Land Raiders. Are you aware that the Thousand Sons have no ground AA capability? TS Retinue at 400 points is pricey considering it has no transport,ranged weapons,and will weigh in at 600+ points per formation when both are added.This is twice the cost of Marine Tactical.I suggest reversion to 350 points until imbalance is ascertained. Silver Towers:why more expensive in a Tzeentch Army-they are Tzeentch units! The online grumbling cannot be taken seriously as the units are not new.Their firepower has always been there and they are so vulnerable to artillery,the god of war. 75 points for Greater Daemons-is that correct? Warp Palace cost increase:can this be justified considering the availability of models and the need to have a tasty,defining unit in the list? Reducing Thrall wizards to 25 points is laudable and affordable.Same principle for Warp Flame. Should TS1.0 be TS2.0? 0-1 Daemon Prince:0-1 upgrade per formation or0-1 per army? Horrors:armour save 5+ or 6+?TS has 5+;L+D and BL has 6+. Hope this is of some interest/help. JohnDragon. _________________ JOHNDRAGON
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tneva82	Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:51 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606	JOHNDRAGON Greater daemons DO cost 8 summoning points. Atleast they do in black legion list. Why wouldn't they in thousand son list? Warp palace: Availibility of model or defining unit shouldn't cheapen unit from it's usefullness in gaming. That leads to FB/40k kind of list where newest armies are better to sell models. Each upgrade may only be taken once so the daemon prince is 0-1 per army(if it's per formation then all should have 0-1 before them). As for silver towers. Reason is probably that a) they can be taken freely since they are core formation and not support formation and b) they are 4-6 instead of fixed 4 unit size. Just my take. _________________ www.tneva.net
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nealhunt

Post subject: Thousand Sons List Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:03 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Daemon Pool:there has been some confusion in usage.Because destroyed daemons are not returned to the daemon pool,adding 1d3on Strategy dr6 is something of a contradiction.To clarify,I suggest aDaemon Pool subhead,flavour text in a different font,possibly an example,and if possible a short rule outlining the primordial soup nature of the daemon pool. At this point I'm pretty much following the lead of the Black Legion and Lost & Damned.  If there is any discrepancy between the TSons summoning rules and BL or L&D, assume the TSons list is in error.  Chances are I simply missed something. Clarification:Greater Daemons cost 4 summoning points,not8?

Doggone it!  I knew there was a typo someone had mentioned that I missed.

They cost 8 to summon.  Again, if there is a discrepancy between the other chaos lists and TSons summoning rules, the others are correct.

Summoned daemons returning to the Daemon Pool:is this wise?Players will become confused during play on whether or not to return or eliminate daemons in the end phase.

The reasons for it are laid out a few posts above (bottom of page 2, I think?).  So far no one has reported any issues with it in the BL or L&D tests either with balance or use in play.

"Other units identical to Black Legion".Are the following Fearless?
Raptors;Rhinos;Chaos Land Raiders.

No.  They aren't in the BL list.  I could see an argument that the crew of the Rhinos and LRs might be fearless, but definitely not the Raptors as they aren't Rubric TSons.  If it causes balance problems, please let me know.

Are you aware that the Thousand Sons have no ground AA capability?

Yep.  Obliterators in 40K can't have the mark of Tzeentch.  Tzeentch has an avian theme so I wanted to encourange use of aircraft.  Unless it becomes a real balance issue, I think it is a flavorful limiting factor.  Doomwings are decent interceptors as far as offensive fire and with 5+ armor and invulnerable have a good chance of surviving any defensive flak to get their shots in.

TS Retinue at 400 points is pricey considering it has no transport,ranged weapons,and will weigh in at 600+ points per formation when both are added.This is twice the cost of Marine Tactical.I suggest reversion to 350 points until imbalance is ascertained.

The price was increased in response to multiple people giving substantially similar feedback that showed they were extremely tough.  Most people are not mounting them because the transport options are all non-Fearless and add vulnerability to AT.  They are choosing to garrison and possibly keep a single formation mounted as a reaction force.

Silver Towers:why more expensive in a Tzeentch Army-they are Tzeentch units!

There are several reasons for a higher cost.  In more or less the order of importance:
1)  They have a 1+ initiative in the TSons list rather than 2+ as in L&D.  
2)  They have a variable formation size making them more strategically flexible, especially since the L&D 4-unit formation is rather fragile.  
3)  They are in an army with a 5 strategy rating.

I think all of that is worth a ~10% price boost.  You'll note from my comments above that I am currently resistant to increasing it any further without substantial evidence that it is needed.

75 points for Greater Daemons-is that correct?

Yep.  Even with a Champion, there is ~40% chance that a formation will not be able to summon a GD on a summoning attempt.  The total effective cost is 75 + 50 (champ) + 50 (icon) + 25 (pact) = 200.  That's pretty substantial expense even though some of it is multi-purpose/multi-use.  It remains vulnerable to sniping of the  Icon, breaking the formation, etc..  The playtest began with the improved versions at 125 points and was gradually reduced until the majority of people felt they were about right.

We discussed making them more expensive in the L&D list because they have more access to Augment Summoning ability but I can't remember without pulling out the L&D list if they are 75 or 100.

Warp Palace cost increase:can this be justified considering the availability of models and the need to have a tasty,defining unit in the list?

This was also based on feedback, though not as much and I am not fully convinced it is needed.

To put it in perspective against some of the other WE options, with 4+RA, Invulnerable, it's a bit tougher than a Warhound.  It packs the equivalent of about 2 and a half titan weapon systems.  It is slow, but is a skimmer so it can hide and do popup attacks.  Number crunching, that ought to be about 350 points and it may go back to that.

Reducing Thrall wizards to 25 points is laudable and affordable.Same principle for Warp Flame.

Thank you.  If you try out the thralls, please let me know how they work for you.

Should TS1.0 be TS2.0?

I'm not sure why you are asking this.  It is v2.0.  It is listed as v2 on the GW site and the first line of the document says (2.0) in parentheses.  Is there a reference to it being v1 somewhere that I missed?

0-1 Daemon Prince:0-1 upgrade per formation or0-1 per army?

Per army.  The BL and L&D only allow 1 per faction and this is a one-faction army.  Same for greater daemons.

Horrors:armour save 5+ or 6+?TS has 5+;L+D and BL has 6+.

There aren't any "official" stats.  Playtesting on them stopped when it was announced that there would be no new units produced and development should be restricted to what was on the old chaos sprues.

That said, I am interested in getting them as close to balanced as possible.  I would like to hear any playtest results in which you use them.

Hope this is of some interest/help.

Definitely.