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Broken units - summoning |
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wargame_insomniac
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:51 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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Hi
I have a question on daemon summoning rules for L&Td but first a quick run down of the context of the game
THE GAME
Played a large game of Epic yesterday- 5,400 points a side. I finally managed to give an outing to Valhallan IG as excellently painted by Tuffskull which can be seen on his website in all their glory:
http://mercenarybrush.com/galleries.php?page=34&view=1
I fielded virtually the entire force apart from both Baneblade companies, infantry company, aircraft and hydras. So I basically had 1 mechanised infantry company (with hellhounds and griffons), 1 leman russ company (with demolishers), 1 artillery company (bassies) and 2 SHT companies (shadowswords), with couple of each of supporting formations including manticore batteries, sentinels and rough riders plus ?some Vultures/Valkyries and 2 deathstrike missiles.
My friend Jim took 5,400 points of cultists, mainly Khornate with 1 Nurgle coven. He had total of 5 Lord of Battles (scary!!), a sole Contagion, with rest of points spent maxing out all covens with Daemon princes, chaos altars, land transports, hounds and maximum amount of sacrifices.
I am sure this would n't be the ideal L&TD min-maxed army- Jim took pretty much whatever Epic Chaos he had brought with him painted. He used the counts as rule fairly liberally- land transports were represented by a mixture of vehicles including rhinos and land raiders, and cultists were represented by mixture of mutants, juggers, slaanesh riding beasts, trolls & minataurs. Not strictly tournament legal but fine for friendly game- the 2 of us knew what was what!!
The game started with Jim (atypically) playing his Lords of Battle cautiously, moving them forward at double so they could shoot, rather than just tripling from start. By spreading the wounds across both Lords of Battle in each formation, as per the War Engine rules in Epic A rulebook, he was able to spread the 5 volcano cannon hits evenly so that each one was still standing.
Highlight of the first turn was both Deathstrike missiles hitting the Contagion and taking it out in an instant. The artillery softened up the covens, breaking 1 and worrying a second.
Second turn saw more of the same with Lords of Battle being whittled down by Volcano cannon and the covens starting to summon deamons as they approached the IG lines.
Third turn saw 1 lord of battle crash into reinforced Leman Russ company. That 4+ reinforced armour was a real bitch to get through whilst the chain fist scythed through imperial tanks. I ended up taking out his last wound through firefight but still broken myself due to the casulaties suffered.
3 turns of 6 shadowswords shooting at the lord of battle finally told and I finished the game having killed all 5!! The artillery and rough rider/sentinel tag team finished off the non-fearless part of chaos covens. So all that was left at end of turn 3 on Chaos side was 5 formations comprising just deamon princes, chaos altars and summoned daemons.
I was able to use the Vultures/Valkyries at end of turn 3 to swoop down and claim both Blitzkreig and Take and Hold Objectives, with Jim just failing to get either Break their Spirit or Take and Hold.
That was a quick run down of the game- sorry for the lack of any more detailed turn by turn blow by blow accounts but I found it hard enough to get through game of that size (previously largest game of Epic A I have played was 2,700 points per side).
THE QUESTION
Now onto a specific L&TD question. During the game I managed to break 1 of Jim's covens before it had activated that turn. He argued that although it states that a broken unit can't move or shoot (apart from making voluntary withdrawal move), it did n't say that you can't use sacrifices to summon daemons if you are broken.
I commented that was because L&TD was a playtest list and that summoning daemons would n't have been borne in mind when the main Epic A rulebook was written.
Therefore he used his maximum sacrifice points to maximise variable summoning points rolled and by taking only lesser daemons he was able to summon sufficient daemons to increase the coven back over their break point and thus he argued, able to act that turn.
I think he was wrong but as it was a friendly game I let him do it. It meant that one chaos coven was able to get into close combat with IG chimera, when really, IMO, they should have been making a withdrawal move as they were broken.
Have either Jim/myself misunderstod the L&TD daemon summoning rules? Is there a specific section in the playtest list that I can point to to support my view? If not could it be clarified in a future revised list/FAQ?
Thanks very much
James
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wraeththu
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:44 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 231
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The short answer, broken formations may not summon daemons.
Section 1.13 on the EA rule book: "Broken formations may not be selected to take an action in the Action phase."
If you cannot be selected to take an action then you cannot summon. I will see about putting a line that says broken formations cannot summon. But section 1.13 prevents a formation from summoning.
-Audrey
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wargame_insomniac
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:45 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Quote (wraeththu @ 30 Dec. 2005 (15:44)) | The short answer, broken formations may not summon daemons.
Section 1.13 on the EA rule book: "Broken formations may not be selected to take an action in the Action phase."
If you cannot be selected to take an action then you cannot summon. ?I will see about putting a line that says broken formations cannot summon. ?But section 1.13 prevents a formation from summoning.
-Audrey |
Thank you Audrey
I argued exactly that point with exactly that reference from EA rulebook. I just wanted to make sure that I had n't misread it.
As I said- if it was a competition game then there is no way I would have let an opponent pull something like that. However as it was a friendly game I gave Jim the benefit of the doubt.
Cheers
James
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wraeththu
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:01 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 231
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Well I changed a line in the summoning so it will now state,
"Broken formations or formations that have not bought a Daemonic Pact may not summon daemons."
-Audrey
_________________
My Oubliette: http://audreysoubliette.wordpress.com
Old archive: http://oubliette.tranquility-base.us/
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Chroma
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:38 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
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| Quote (wraeththu @ 30 Dec. 2005 (18:01)) | Well I changed a line in the summoning so it will now state,
"Broken formations or formations that have not bought a Daemonic Pact may not summon daemons."
-Audrey |
Could the wording be changed to "Broken formations or formations that have do not possess a Daemonic Pact may not summon daemons."
"Bought" just seemed odd to me...
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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wargame_insomniac
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:42 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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A few things we learnt from the game were:
-better choice of upgrades to covens. Jim has realised that there is no point in adding a chaos altar to the same formations which have land transports. It slows them down to much.
-mixing up the core troops in covens, taking some mutants/big mutants instead of just cultists.
Can you think of any other suggestions to improve Jim's L&TD army? Does anyone prefer taking smaller Khornate daemon engines rather than Lord Of Battles?
Cheers
James
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wargame_insomniac
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:43 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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| Quote (wraeththu @ 30 Dec. 2005 (18:01)) | Well I changed a line in the summoning so it will now state,
"Broken formations or formations that have not bought a Daemonic Pact may not summon daemons."
-Audrey |
Thanks Audrey
Cheers
James
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wraeththu
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Post subject: Broken units - summoning Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:36 pm |
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| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 231
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[quote="wargame_insomniac,30 Dec. 2005 (13:42)"][/quote]
A few things we learnt from the game were:
-better choice of upgrades to covens. Jim has realised that there is no point in adding a chaos altar to the same formations which have land transports. It slows them down to much.
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I agree. ?I generally put a coven with the Altar on foot. ?
-mixing up the core troops in covens, taking some mutants/big mutants instead of just cultists.
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Rarely do I not use mixed formations. ?I do play some "traitor guard" formations that are all cultists. ?But the formation is desinged to be "shooty" so it also gets Leman Russ, and other fire support.
Big Mutants and Mutants combo work reasonably well for an assault coven. ?The BM at least provide some fire power.
Can you think of any other suggestions to improve Jim's L&TD army? Does anyone prefer taking smaller Khornate daemon engines rather than Lord Of Battles?
The smaller DE cost less so it lets you get more activations for less points. ?Generally LatD armies tend to be big formations with few activations.
-Audrey
