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VTOL and vector thursting

 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:28 am 
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At the moment I am in an aircrefty and skaven mode and all my hobby related activities are to do with them.  As a result I amreading double eagle by mr Abnett.

In reading this book I have learnt several things.

Pages 50 and 51 are the wrong way way (and this is my second read and I have only just noticed).

I have put my Thunderbolts together wrong, since they are surpose to have swept forwards wings  :p

Finally I learnt that Lightnings and Thunderbolts are VTOL and vector thurst capable.

Being some what surspecious of the writers ablility to get things right, I checked my imperial armour 1.  In there it isn't (or at least I didn't see any) mention of either plane having thrust vectoring capability, though it does mention that the lightning is a VTOL craft,so it is possible.

So (after all that rambling), I am asking all you air heads out their, would vector thursting change the way a plane moved in such a away we could make new manouver cards for planes with that ability.

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:12 pm 
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Thrust vectoring would simply give a better manuever rating IMHO, rather than any special abilities.

VTOL ability could allow the 'VIFFING' technique I suppose (Which is where a plane that has an enemy on its tail engages the VTOL engine and sharply pulls the nose up, the effect being that the plane loses speed and is soon on the tail of the persuing aircraft).

The technique was talked about a lot back when the Harrier jump jet came into service, although as far as I know noone has ever actually used the VIFF in a combat situation.

But 40k is a fantasy universe. :)

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:55 pm 
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e and c is correct in that vectored thrust abilitys would simply increase the manuvering capabilitys of an aircraft. also a vtol aircraft such as the harrier is just an extreem case of vectored thrust. i.e. the aircraft can vector it's engine thrust a full 90 degrees thus allowing verticle take off. the specific manuver he mentions is also just an extreem case of a simple loop, the vectored thrust just allows the aircraft to make an incredbly tight loop that an ordinary aircraft can't match. it is important to realise however that even in modern aircraft the most extreem manuvers an airplane can make are determined more by the G tolerance of the pilot, most modern fighter jets can turn at such high Gs that the pilot is easily rendered uncontious, therfore vectored thrust advantages would usually only come into play at low speeds.

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:38 pm 
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It's probably worth mentioning that while real life sees 'VIFF' manuevers as pretty much useless (Because dogfights never occur anymore), AI is all about dogfighting, so if any combat capabilities of a VTOL craft could be reflected, I'd say it's VIFFing.

PS: I've completely forgotten what VIFF stands for, before anyone asks. :D


EDIT: "Vectoring In Forward Flight"

Basically, you engage the vertical nozzles/rotate your thrust vectoring nozzles, pull the nose up, and either do a complete loop or just put the nose back down again, either case should leave you traveling slower than your opponent, with the loop leaving you at an equivilent or lower altitude to the one you started at, the partial manuever leaving you higher.

Which type of manuever you'd wish to perform would normally depend on the enemy's distance from your tail (A quick VIFF if the enemy's close, or a full loop if they're slightly further away).

Obviously doing this manuever at any time other than very close-in dogfighting will make you into target practice for the enemy (You end up flying slower, and you just pulled off a complex manuever so you'll need a second or so to recover). In fact pull off this manuever too far away from the enemy on your tail and he'll just shoot you down almost without effort! :D





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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:05 pm 
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in effect very similiar to doing rolls or scissors manuvers in an ordinary aircraft. the scissors manuver was used in exactly the same way in ww2 by u.s. fighters especially when engageing the lighter more manuverable japanese aircraft.
the idea that dogfighting is no longer valid due to long range missles is not neccesarily agreed on by all. a good example of this was vietnam , where the latest american aircraft had the worlds finest missle systems but no guns in the begining of the war, buit by the end of the war all american airplanes were equiped with canon for dogfighting at the direct request of american pilots. you can only carry so many missles, and then what do you do ? also in a world where stealth tech is becoming more and more previlent the possiblity of close range engagement is once again becoming more and more likely.

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:13 pm 
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I guess that the only real consrquence is that they can slip backwards slowly, remaining at the same facing. They can also rise or drop altitude without translation movement - but I dont know if this is already written into the rules.

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:34 pm 
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Oh you still have to dogfight... you just end up having to dogfight the missile.  They have small control surfaces but are very fast, got a missile on your tail jerking and weaving so that the missile loses track of you (just like trying to get another aircraft off your tail) is important.

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:27 pm 
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i think it's allready factored in the crafts statline...
OTOH, it isn't, concerning Take off and landing procedure... many aircrafts in IA supposedly can take off and land vertically (vulture & valkyries, thunderhawk, landers (SM or orks), manta, lightning and thunderbolts...)

I'm not sure it would require any special ruling tho, TO and landing procedure are quite basics anyway; might be fun for a surprise attack scenario where your pilots have to run to their aircraft and take off to defend their airfield against an incomming attack wing :)

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:49 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jan. 14 2007,19:34)
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Oh you still have to dogfight... you just end up having to dogfight the missile.  They have small control surfaces but are very fast, got a missile on your tail jerking and weaving so that the missile loses track of you (just like trying to get another aircraft off your tail) is important.

Trying to outmanuever a missile is pretty much a loser's game... far better to release Chaff, throttle down and pray. :)

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:08 pm 
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So from the sounds of it VIFFings end result would be a bit like yo-yoing.  So VTOL planes could get +1 to their skills ckck when they try to yo-yo.

Or am I way off (like with my spelling of thrust!)

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 Post subject: VTOL and vector thursting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:48 pm 
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Out maneuvering a missile is easy - it is doing it before it hits you that is hard.

When you release chaff you are also pulling up and away from your previous position. Hoping that the super fast missile hits the mess of metal where you were. It is still dogfighting, just not for superior position.   You also have to know you are locked on to and where the missile is to do anything about it.  The missile type also matters a SA-5 coming up through the clouds is travelling Mach 2, but its control surfaces can do practically nothing.  If you know it is coming you can try and get out of the way as it climbs up towards you, it will pass by going Mach 2 if you are lucky.
In the modern era enemies of the US tend to not be able to compete in the air because the US has 1) better aircraft and 2) better trained crews.  US missile systems are powerful because the radar systems on the aircraft are very good.  The radar on the F-15C Eagle has a 20+ mile range, the F-22A is better, leading to first look first kill, hopefully without the enemy seeing you.

I will hopefully be able to tell you what the 'approved' solution is in a year when I am done with Undergraduate Pilot Training.

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