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Death Korps of Krieg v1.6

 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:28 pm 
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In honour of the new Grenedier-carrying Centaur variant, here is Version 1.6 of the Death Korps list.

It also includes a whole bunch of other modifications including:

- Added the Rapier Laser Destroyer.
- Moved Thudd & Heavy Mortars back to Company Upgrade status, but implemented a 0-1 restriction per Company to stop cheap & resilient Upgrade spamming.
- Attached Heavy Support Platforms also given the same restriction.
- Increased the Centaur?s speed to 35cm
- Command Salamanders limited to 0-1 per Company.
- A whole bunch more unit descriptions added.

Comments? Critisisms? Slander?





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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:49 pm 
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Looking good  :alien:   Only one thought- do you think the centaur/trojan are a bit fast?  I would imagine gun tractors being rather slow with designs optimised for pulling power (wink wink) rather than speed.  

As it stands the centaur is as fast as a salamder scout which seems wrong. For example should it be able to keep up with a land speeder or marine bike?

What about Trojan being 20cm/centaur 25-30?  Still keeps them faster than the majority of the Dk units without being too fast.

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:15 pm 
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do you think the centaur/trojan are a bit fast?


The Centaur at least has the 'fast vehicle' rule in 40k (When not towing a gun), giving us an indicator that it is at the least faster than a Chimera (Which is a normal speed vehicle in 40k), so I gave it a 5cm nudge over the Chimera.

I've considered giving Centaurs & Trojans a note that reduces their speed when transporting a support weapon, but I'm not sure it's nessesary as towed weapons / platforms are not allowed to fire on the turn they're transported, which is an abstraction that represents the gun being towed at a constant (And somewhat slow) speed throughout the activation (15 minutes), before being unlimbered and ready to fire by the next turn.

This is in contrast to the Barran list which allows towed systems to fire on the turn they move (Which I visualise as a quick dash-unlimber-fire operation, something the Death Korps doesn't tend to indulge in).


Imperial Armour 1 has the Trojan's on-road top speed as 80kph, and the Chimera's as 70kph. Similar enough that I thought the Trojan's should remain as listed in the 'Collector's' section of the rulebook at 30cm.

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:07 pm 
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Incidentally, I've come across these:






They're ForgeWorld concept sketches for a Krieg Super-Heavy siege weapon.

An Ordinatus Krieg, perhaps.

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:09 pm 
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I like it! I wonder if they'll actually release it.

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:06 pm 
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Mark Bedford says 'Likely'.

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:23 pm 
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Looking through the list it seems like it is an attempt to include alot of the Forgeworld minis, but not nessecarily focused directly on a Infantry Trench Regiment (I think that is the feel of the army)

The inclusion of a large variety of Leman Russes, while being cool, does not seem to feel right for the Death Korps.  I would think that a Trench Warfare regiment would have lost their more advanced tanks and would operate them as Support Squadrons and not part of a Tank Company.

I also think that including access to the two standard Super-Heavies would make sense. Possibly not including the Stormblade.  The Stormsword makes sense for the Death Korps.

I like the Heavy Artillery Battery - definitely fits the feel of the force.

While the Salamander is a cool mini,  I would expect a Trench army to use Sentinels.

I Would make a Tank Squadron either Leman Russ, LR Demolisher, or Destroyer a Support Formation and the Company Upgrade a pair of Thunderers or Executioners.

Why include Vultures if their are no Valkyries?  It seems like they are included to have a Skimmer unit and once again a list that contains the Forgeworld mini.  I would leave that for the Elysian list.

I have recently taken an interest in the various Imperial List being developped and the direction they are headed.  I realize that it may be a little late in commenting but I think they had to be made.

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:04 am 
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Looking through the list it seems like it is an attempt to include alot of the Forgeworld minis, but not nessecarily focused directly on a Infantry Trench Regiment (I think that is the feel of the army)


It certainly is, but the Death Korps have a weird tech dichotomy, we'll get to that. :)

The inclusion of a large variety of Leman Russes, while being cool, does not seem to feel right for the Death Korps.  I would think that a Trench Warfare regiment would have lost their more advanced tanks and would operate them as Support Squadrons and not part of a Tank Company.

The Death Korps are not your standard Siege regiment... they are not a little PDF force like the Barrans, they are highly-equipped with very decent tanks & aircraft, which are used to back up the massed infantry Engagements Krieg is famous for.

It's certain that they have access to some of the most high tech Leman Russ Variants like the Tank Destroyer in fact, so I'm not entirely in favour of removing one of the (already few) Company choices, especially since there's plenty of support in the background for Armoured Siege Regiments coming from Krieg, as well as the more well-known Infantry Siege Regiments.


I also think that including access to the two standard Super-Heavies would make sense.

One of the features of the list is short range, hard hitting power.

In this respect, the Shadowsword doesn't entirely mesh.

In a full-featured, all-units armylist, all four Super-Heavies would have a place in the list.

As it is, I've just gone for the two that are:

- Short ranged.
- Aren't included in any other lists.


While the Salamander is a cool mini,  I would expect a Trench army to use Sentinels.

The Death Korps is known to use both, and in a perfect world I'd put both in the list.

However, Epic:A is all about small, focused lists, and as with the Super-Heavies, there were factors that pushed me towards the FW model.

- The model is currently produced by a GW company, yet has no rules and no points in any other armylist.
- The unit is known to be used by the Korps in the background.

I Would make a Tank Squadron either Leman Russ, LR Demolisher, or Destroyer a Support Formation and the Company Upgrade a pair of Thunderers or Executioners.

3x Destroyer support formations would be pretty obscene, cheap & deadly, but conversely pretty easy to break with the placement of just a few blast markers... this doesn't seem to fit the Krieg's nature to me.

As I mentioned, this list is supposed to represent the varied spectrum of armies that are fielded by Krieg, from Infantry, to Armour-Mobile Infantry, to Armoured Tank Regiment, in a similar fashion as the Steel Legion list from the rulebook can be used to build several different themes.

At least that's how I saw it when we started putting the list together.

Why include Vultures if their are no Valkyries?  It seems like they are included to have a Skimmer unit and once again a list that contains the Forgeworld mini.  I would leave that for the Elysian list.

Vultures are a unit I have been mulling over removing, since I have little to no background info on Vultures being used by Krieg's armies currently.

I have recently taken an interest in the various Imperial List being developped and the direction they are headed.  I realize that it may be a little late in commenting but I think they had to be made.

Not at all... the Krieg list at least is only in the early stages of playtesting right now, this is a good time to raise issues and shape the future of the list.




Note: Most of my info on Krieg comes from the various Imperial Armour books (Especially Vol1) and from plenty of reading around the net... but in the end I've also made a few semi-contentious leaps of faith as to how the final army will look.

I can tell you this; I showed Version 1.5 of this list to Warwick Kinrade (The chap who writes the Imperial Armour books for ForgeWorld), and although he didn't want to get into the specifics of the list's balance for a variety of reasons (One being that he doesn't actually play Epic under 4th edition rules!), he was in pretty positive about the list and said he was generally in favour of it, though there may come a day when ForgeWorld produce their own DKoK list for Epic.

Take that for what you will really. :)





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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:09 am 
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Looking good!

The pictures and stuff makes it look lovely. Might want to center some of them more in the datafaxes, but cool. And I like the grey/brown "feel" to it - fits nicely with gas masks and trenches!

Some knee-jerk comments on the list.

Chimera turrets.
Argh! Pick a turret! Maybe two. Not three! I would suggest stick to one.

Lance weapons
Eh? That be heresy talkin'! That's an eldar rule. Leave it to the pointy-eared xenos scum. Just give the laser destroyer a real good AT value (or possibly MW). I think AT2+ wouldn't be too far out. I can see where you're coming from using Lance, but it isn't worth an army special rule for one tank!

The thin rear armour rule
Another "argh!". No, that's not going to work; noone is going to want to carefully position every Leman Russ - that's why the crossfire rules are like that and don't involve exact positioning. Thin Rear Armour should be something like "any unit caught in a crossfire suffers -2 to their save rather than -1" or "any unit caught in a crossfire loses Reinforced Armour" or whatever.

Overall, my main complaint would be that there are a lot of options in there that are obviously just because you like the models. There's nothing wrong with variant titans, etc, but make sure they fit the theme of the list. If they don't - stick with the normal variants. Keep your variant datafaxes for a rainy day... I'm sure they'll come in useful. But I would recommend that you steel your heart and cull all those forgeworld-specific rules that really are only there because you like the model. EDIT: a better idea... collect all the variant rules you can bear to part with and stick them all in a "collector's models" section at the end!

Please take all of this as constructive criticism, it is a very nice list. I'll give it a thorough run-through when I can!

E.






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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:54 am 
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So the Krieg list is suppose to be just Krieg Regiments,  I do not think this is a good way to build army list.

If it is suppose to be a different Siege Infantry Regiment List, then it has to much mobile units.  If it is suppose to be a Trench/Breacher Infantry/Artillery Regiment, Tank Company should not have variety and be made a Support Formation.  Artillery should be be moved up, new Super-Heavies developed along with the Stormsword, Stormblade, and Baneblade (think it should be included).

If I want to represent a Krieg Mechanized Regiment, I should use the Steel Legion List,  if I want to represent a Krieg Siege Regiment, the Siegemaster List (most of the equipment in it is Krieg Pattern).

What is the Krieg list?  Can I represent the Cadian 120th (insert regiment type) using the list?  Can I represent the Tallarn 65th (insert regiment type)? Can I represent the Tanith 1st (wait... scratch that)? Can I represent the Arcadian 5th (insert regiment type)? Can I represent the ... you get the point...

Most of the information you based it off of pretains to the 19th Krieg Armoured, 22nd Armoured, and snipets about various other largely Armoured Regiments. Pulling Info from IA1, I would expect Baneblades & Stormblades, no Stormswords (most of the time these are converted Shadowswords).
Why not make the Krieg list an Armored Tank List?
This will require quiet a bit of reworking of the list to change it to an Armoured List. Big changes would be in the core companies (the Baran list only has 2).  

Core formations:
Regimental HQ (Leviathan!)
Tank Company (Leman Russ Variants)
Artillery Company (Basilisk or Medusas)
Super-Heavy Company (Baneblades and/or Stormblades)
Suport Formations:
Death Rider Platoon
Grenadiers Platoon
Mechanized Infantry Company (currently called a Platoon, can take company upgrades, but takes from parent Company's upgrades)
AA Battery (Hydras)
Artillery Battery (Basilisk, Medusa, or Manticore)
Scout Salamander Platoon (4 Salamanders)
Scout Sentinel Platoon (4 Sentinel)
Company Upgrades:
Tank Squadron (Leman Russ, Thunderer, Destroyer)
Hellhound Squadron
Hydra
Salamander Command Vehicle

To avoid recreating the Steel Legion list, making the Mechanized Infantry a support formation helps there.

Like I said before the list does not seem to represent any single Regiment type, but just everything cool we have seen out of FW regarding the DKoK for 40k and all the cool FW Epic Minis.  It looks awesome though.





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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:46 am 
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From what I see the list is very detailed ... and looks workable !  And I'd like to see that F/W concept in EPic scale !  :;):

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:11 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Dec. 13 2006,02:09)
QUOTE
Looking good!

The pictures and stuff makes it look lovely. Might want to center some of them more in the datafaxes, but cool. And I like the grey/brown "feel" to it - fits nicely with gas masks and trenches!

I have this vague idea about re-doing the pictures in the datafaxes as line-drawings done with MS-Illustrator... thought that might look cool, and a little less busy.


Chimera turrets.
Argh! Pick a turret! Maybe two. Not three! I would suggest stick to one.


What's wrong with allowing a few variant turrets that will allow you to theme your formation?
The Korps Infantry are inflexible and their ranged weapon sucks... they need their armoured transport to be flexible enough to overcome this, IMHO.

Lance weapons
Eh? That be heresy talkin'! That's an eldar rule. Leave it to the pointy-eared xenos scum. Just give the laser destroyer a real good AT value (or possibly MW). I think AT2+ wouldn't be too far out. I can see where you're coming from using Lance, but it isn't worth an army special rule for one tank!

IIRC the Medusa also has lance on its weapon, to repressent the 'siege shells' it uses.

EDIT:

I see the rule less as an 'eldar rule', than a rule to demonstrate the effect of the weapon...

If the destroyer has AT2+ then it's no better at tank-killing than a Vanquisher.

If the destroyer has a MW attack then it cannot be fired against AT-type targets only, and thus would end up frying infantry.

All in all, I believe Lance is the best fit here.

The thin rear armour rule
Another "argh!". No, that's not going to work; noone is going to want to carefully position every Leman Russ - that's why the crossfire rules are like that and don't involve exact positioning. Thin Rear Armour should be something like "any unit caught in a crossfire suffers -2 to their save rather than -1" or "any unit caught in a crossfire loses Reinforced Armour" or whatever.

Here's the good news:

Thin Rear Armour is a special rule for one tank and one tank alone, the Gorgon.

This is because the Gorgon actually has rules in 40k that give it exceptionally tough front armour (It has a 4+ save against all Glancing hits) due to the armoured ramp.

To represent this in Epic I went for giving it a good armour save normally, but deny the re-roll when hit in the rear quater.

I don't think that's too much detail for a unit that will only have a few examples on the table at any one time, and it makes the use of the Gorgon a bit more interesting.

Overall, my main complaint would be that there are a lot of options in there that are obviously just because you like the models.

Less that I like the models, just that they have no rules or points in any other list except the badly thought-out "collector's" stats in the back of the rulebook.

I hate to see FW's exceptionally cool models so badly treated by the core rulebook. Business-wise I guess it makes sense, but I'm a gamer, not a GW department-head.

That said, I am considering paring down the list, with the Vulture looking to be first on the chopping block, possibly followed by the 'advanced' Imperial Navy aircraft soon after.

There's nothing wrong with variant titans, etc, but make sure they fit the theme of the list.

The variant Titans are here to stay. I think this is an ideal opperturnity to allow the use of the 4 FW Titan models.



EDIT: a better idea... collect all the variant rules you can bear to part with and stick them all in a "collector's models" section at the end!

I already have a Collector's section planned, which has the datafaxes for the Capitol Imperialis & Stormhammer in it at the moment.

Please take all of this as constructive criticism, it is a very nice list. I'll give it a thorough run-through when I can!

Of course.

I can only say that much of the structure of the list was (communally) decided a couple of months back, and if a unit is in there, we've probably had a long discussion about it at some point in a previous thread. :)





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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:40 pm 
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These replies to OrangeSM:



If it is suppose to be a different Siege Infantry Regiment List, then it has to much mobile units.


Even a mechanised Krieg army will never be that mobile... they use Gorgons after all!


If it is suppose to be a Trench/Breacher Infantry/Artillery Regiment, Tank Company should not have variety and be made a Support Formation.

Variety in tank support is one of the hallmarks of an attacking siege regiment (I'm thinking of Hobart's funnies here) to me.

Artillery should be be moved up

I don't want to make a list that entails just sitting still and hitting the enemy with artillery all game... that would just be an up-gunned version of the Barran list.

new Super-Heavies developed

I will not put in non-canon vehicles unless I absolutely cannot avoid it.

along with the Stormsword, Stormblade, and Baneblade (think it should be included).

I'm tempted to put the Baneblade at least back in there (Originally it was in the list, before the First Great Cull).

If I want to represent a Krieg Mechanized Regiment, I should use the Steel Legion List,

And your infantry will have Autocannons, will not have Gorgons, thudd guns, heavy mortars, etc.

The Mechanised Infantry army that you can build with this list is definitely Krieg, simply due to the changes in the Infantry stats, let alone the structure of the list.

if I want to represent a Krieg Siege Regiment, the Siegemaster List (most of the equipment in it is Krieg Pattern).

The Siegemasters list represents a low-tech PDF Siege Regiment, not a high-tech expeditionary Siege Regiment.

What is the Krieg list?  Can I represent the Cadian 120th (insert regiment type) using the list?  Can I represent the Tallarn 65th (insert regiment type)? Can I represent the Tanith 1st (wait... scratch that)? Can I represent the Arcadian 5th (insert regiment type)? Can I represent the ... you get the point...

Due to the changes in the infantry statlines, it would represent a rather poorly-armed, very angry Cadian Regiment.

Most of the information you based it off of pretains to the 19th Krieg Armoured, 22nd Armoured, and snipets about various other largely Armoured Regiments.

I also took info from old GW sources (Like the Armageddon Campaign info about Krieg), and from FW's newly-published info about Krieg. Added to that was a little bit of educated guesswork (Blitzkrieg is all about combined arms after all, so that obviously had to be a theme, which meant good Tank, Air & Titan support was required) as to how Krieg's armies would operate.

Pulling Info from IA1, I would expect Baneblades & Stormblades, no Stormswords (most of the time these are converted Shadowswords).

Of the tanks included, I've found examples of every type in service with a Krieg regiment in the background (Largely IA:1 of course).

I'd kinda like to put the Baneblade (And possibly even the Shadowsword) back in the list, they were removed because at one point the list had 5 super-heavy tank types.


Why not make the Krieg list an Armored Tank List?

You can do that with the current Krieg list, pretty much. Only mobile long-range artillery is missing.

Regimental HQ (Leviathan!)

No OOP models where it can be avoided... that was an order from Neal Hunt.

Artillery Company (Basilisk or Medusas)

Basilisks are lots better.

To avoid recreating the Steel Legion list, making the Mechanized Infantry a support formation helps there.

Overall I think that list structure would just result in a Steel Legion list with more flexibility and power (I don't think putting the Mech-Inf in Support would limit it as much as you suspect).

That said, I'm sure there is room for an Armoured Regiment list in Epic... but this list is the Krieg list, with dichotomised technology and anachronistic Infantry. Modify the list that much and it's no longer 'Krieg-Themed', IMHO.

Like I said before the list does not seem to represent any single Regiment type, but just everything cool we have seen out of FW regarding the DKoK for 40k and all the cool FW Epic Minis.

I have to disagree. The short-ranged but hard hitting theme of the list does fit Krieg IMHO.


It looks awesome though.

:)





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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:47 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ Dec. 13 2006,04:46)
QUOTE
From what I see the list is very detailed ... and looks workable !  And I'd like to see that F/W concept in EPic scale !  :;):

I like to think that a lot of careful thought has gone into this list, both from myself and those who've contributed so far...

So yeah, lots of variety, but nothing that becomes game-breakingly so, In My HO. :D

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:52 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 12 2006,19:15)
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Imperial Armour 1 has the Trojan's on-road top speed as 80kph, and the Chimera's as 70kph. Similar enough that I thought the Trojan's should remain as listed in the 'Collector's' section of the rulebook at 30cm.

Wow,  that does make them rather fast!   :confuse:  Id tend to agree with you about there being no need to reduce speeds when towing, if only to avoid more special rules.

Also, love the look of the new FW mini- very much in keeping with what I envision for the DK.  :)

I was wondering about the baneblade too- would give the list a more versatile SH which is bound to be a good thing.

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