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Elysian Drop Troop

 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:41 am 
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@Honda,

Some things you may want to think about before someone challenges you...

Elysian Drop and Support Sentinels
In IA3, Drop Sentinels and Support Sentinels in the Elysian can Deep Strike if the mission allows it, or they can always ride in a dedicated Valkyrie transport. However, Drop Sentinels and Support Sentinels do not benefit from the 'scout' special rule in 40K.

Valkyrie Heavy Lift
Also, in 40K, Valkyries are subject to "Heavy Lift" rule if they are carrying anything OTHER than than 12 infantry.

Although they can carry 12 men (Elysians or Storm Troopers plus accompanying Characters) and also take their compliment of weapon systems - if carrying Sentinel, Cyclops or sentry gun then it must be equipped with external fuel tanks on its win pounted hard points. Whilst equipped with fuel tanks a Valkyrie may not carry hellstrike missiles or multiple rocket pods.

By Default, a Valkyrie is armed with 1 nose multilaser and 2 door mounted heavy bolters. The Multilaser may be upgraded to a lascannon.

If not operating in "Heavy Lift" mode, the two external fuel tanks can be dropped for wing hard point weapon systems. Those are two hellstrike missles or two multiple rocket podes.

So - if you are sticking to IA3 - these may be things to consider if Sentinels, Cyclops or Sentry guns are to be transported.

Then again - KISS might be the way to go and in E:A - all Valkyries are the same - so who cares. :)

Anyway, just thought I'd mention it for you to chew on.

In the end - if the list plays best with scout sentinels and all the same valkyries - so be it. :)

cheers,

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:52 am 
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Honda,

Something I noticed when skimming through the Elysians list is that they depend upon thrown demo charges that have the power of a battlecannon ordinance shell quite often in their infantry.

A quick glance notices that the following units all have demo charges - which are typically quite rare in IG armies...

40K limits per 40K army

Special weapon squads
(each can have 1 demo charge)

Hardened Vet Squads
(each can have 1 demo charge)

Drop Infantry Platoons
1 command squad, and
2-4 squads (4-8 E:A units) where each squad can have 1 demo charge

Cyclops - which of course is a mobile demo charge - upto 24" away from an operator in a valkyrie.

Aircraft looks like the forgeworld version of the Thunderbolt or lightning fighters at the 40K scale. It does state, "the Imperial Navy often fly in close support of the Elysian Drop Troops, providing fighter protection to the Valkyries and seeking out enemies with strafing cannons, bombs, and hellstrike missiles."

Anyway - just some stuff to think about Honda... hopefully this is useful info and not a bunch of headache. :)

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:53 am 
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Hmm, what do you think of a varient on the siegemaster sappers?
They are an existing Epic IG infantry unit with a MW attack.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:45 pm 
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Hmm, what do you think of a varient on the siegemaster sappers?
They are an existing Epic IG infantry unit with a MW attack.


ATRC,

So are you and Tactica proposing a MW attack for the infantry?

I don't have the Siegemasters list handy, how is that handled?

What would you guys propose?

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:54 pm 
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In the end - if the list plays best with scout sentinels and all the same valkyries - so be it.



I am inclined to leave the Valkyries and Sentinels as is and take the KISS approach for right now. Short of something coming up in a game that looks whacky, I don't know that adding in rules and the need for marking units as one way or the other will add value.

I sort of had the same feeling around the cyclops vehicle, not really sure what to do about it. I haven't completely abandoned it because I can see it as a "one shot" MW kind of attack, but between that and the demolition charges, I don't want the MW attacks to get out of hand.

Anyway, these are good thoughts and I would like to continue to develop them.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:28 pm 
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@Honda and TRC,

Well - MW might be over the top for a demo charge.

If we look at 40K for guidance, a demo charge is a 6" ranged battle cannon shot deliverd by the hands of a valiant (or stupid) IG bob delivery mechanism.

Range

6" is 1/12 the range of a 40K 72" range.

That would make the 6cm or applying epic modifiers 10 or 15cm range in Epic

Damage Potential
A battlecannon in E:A is a AP4+/AT4+ hit.

I would play it safe and start there. KISS and all. So I would say yeah, Elysians with Demos have a "1 shot" AP4+/AT4+ attack... [EDIT]This will add unit level record keeping beyond what is already done on Valkyries / Vultures - may get tedious[/EDIT]

or...

Count [EDIT]units at the time of firing:[/EDIT] apply the IG Steel legion mentality and eliminate the record keeping all together... add up the number of remaining units in the army. Divide by 2. That's how many 10-15cm AP4+/AT4+ Demo Charge shots that can be thrown that turn.

Thoughts?

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:45 pm 
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Count apply the IG Steel legion mentality and eliminate the record keeping all together... add up the number of remaining units in the army. Divide by 2. That's how many 10-15cm AP4+/AT4+ Demo Charge shots that can be thrown that turn.


I would be in favor of that approach assuming:

1. Drop the one per two autocannon shots
2. These become assault weapons (i.e. not ranged fire)

This way, if you want long range shots, you have to get Fire Support units.

However, in the Elysians list, there are some fairly healthy heavy weapon assets assigned at the Company/Platoon Command level.

Should we incorporate these as well (e.g. Missile launcher teams). I'm thinking that if yes, then it would only apply to the commander stand.

Thinks?

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:27 pm 
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@Honda,

Good questions:

From the core design in 40K - Elysians don't have access to lascannons which is what we see many 40K IG fighting elements rely upon for infantry armor hunting.

On the other hand, as you pointed out, they have great access to Motars, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, & Missle Launchers. Our IA3 tome of knowledge specifically sites these as the preferred weapons of the Elysians because

1. they can be collapsed
2. they are relatively manouvrable
3. they can fit in the 'Coffin' containers dropped with infantry
4. they are not nearly as bulky/heavy as a lascannon with tripod and cell pack.

So to take the E:A Autocannon 'heavy weapon' away from the Elysians all together may be overkill.

Also, unlike other IG - they don't have access to the array of tanks and superheavies.

I think they do this by 'beefing up' their 'elite' IG infantry.

So is it that over the top to suggest

1. every other unit recieves demo at 10-15cm AP4+/AT4+
2. every other unit receives autocannon

BUT only on:
1. Basic drop troop infantry Units
   - part of Drop Troop infantry AND Reg HQ formations
2. Harden Vet Units
3. Cyclops

However, these would ONLY have Demos and would be every stand (not every other)
1. SPECIAL Weapon Support Units

These of course would remain 1 autocannon per stand (no demo and no every other)
1. HEAVY weapon support units
   - different than the special weapon support


THEREFORE, the following would only have every other autocannon - no demo
1. Drop Troop Command HQ unit
   - part of Drop Troop infantry formation
2. Regimental Drop Troop HQ unit
   - part of Reg command formation

FINALLY, the following would have no demo or autocannon..
1. All Storm Trooper units
2. Sentinels
3. Tarantulas

NOTE: As per IA3, this would require creation of:
a. Hardened vet Formations (no HQ for them)
b. Special support Units (upgrade)
c. Heavy support units (upgrade)

Right - that took a while to format, but I'm hoping the effort was worth it to clarify the subtlties in the points I'm trying to convey.

What I like about this is the focus is on the Elite definition of the troops and the differences that each troop type brings to the table.

It means its not just Navy, Vultures, Valkyries and some generic men... but what's in the Valkyries i.e. The Hardened veterens, the Elysians, the Storm troopers - each REALLY matter in their own way - just as much as the Navy, Vultures, and Valkyries.

The general has to be focused on his battle plane and his utilization of his resources, lest the valkyries all die as his demo charges be on foot patrol! I really like this differentiation amonst the Elysians as IA3 outlines actually... Hmm.

OK - I'm one person and spent way to much time on this post... other thoughts?

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:22 am 
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SG sappers have a MW cc attack from there demo charges - in theory bunker cracking hardware. You have up to 8 stands in the army.

Record keeping on them bad - but the divide by two approach is a tad annoying due to the range - say you get two units up thats one shot, I'd prefer to manover two units with charges up and use those.

COnversly having them as CC attacks does make them one shot (almost :) ) but  also boosts anti-infantry potential.

Artillary wise if they have a stack of mortars why not let them have Heavy Weapon stands with a griffon (1BP, 30cm) attack? Too much when combined with all the valkries?

Also can the drop squads in IA3 have intergral heavy weapons?

Looking at forgeworld all the heavies seem to be in dedicated squads, not squad support.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:00 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 23 Feb. 2006 (03:22))

@TRC (& Honda),

SG sappers have a MW cc attack from there demo charges - in theory bunker cracking hardware. You have up to 8 stands in the army.

IG Sappers in the siege list says "Meltabombs", not "Demolition Charge."

From 40K core design, Meltabombs and Demolition Charge are defined terms and very different things.

Meltabombs are not thrown. They are strapped onto equipment and explode with super-heated molten plasma which is the equivilent of a lava heated plastic explosive! They are Strength 8 and cause 8 + 2D6 or a total of 10-20 armor peneatration to vehicles! 40K vehicles have armor 10 - 14 rating so you get the idea of the destructive power here. However, they are not thrown - they are like plastic explosives set, charge, boom = very hot nasty mess!

A Demolition Charge is the equivilent of a bundle of dynamite with with a timer. It is hurled at the enemy from a man throwing it or it is strapped to a remote controlled delivery device. It delivers an explosive blast in a very VERY large area of effect (5" diameter in 40K scale!) It has the exact same damage profile as an IG battlecannon, but is thrown so has a much shorter range. It is Strength 8 like the Meltabomb, but it explodes in a huge radius so its armor peneatration is not as great as the Meltabomb but it can take out a slew of marines or bugs in one shot! In 40K, its armor penetration value is still very significant, but not as good as a Meltabomb as previously noted. It's armor penetration is 8 + the single highest die roll of 2D6. So its armor damage potential is 9-14 with a probability of 12-14 - just like a battle cannon. (not adding the 2d6 together like you are with the melta).

So I think the IG sappers got it right - Meltabomb = base to base contact.

We have a precident for battlecannon / demo-charge damage... it would be a projectile, but it would be AP4+/AT4+.

Record keeping on them bad - but the divide by two approach is a tad annoying due to the range - say you get two units up thats one shot, I'd prefer to manover two units with charges up and use those.


Great point. I fully agree actually.

So, your post has got me thinking TRC. Also - considering the due to the relatively short range of effectiveness in Core Design... instead of being a 'fired' weapon, it may be better represented in E:A as

Demolition ChargeFF4+__+1 attack.

Then there would be no every other counting here and there would be no need for one shot accounting.

Afterall, they are elites and their are designed to get close and shoot the tar out of you...

What do you think?

COnversly having them as CC attacks does make them one shot (almost :) ) but  also boosts anti-infantry potential.

Agreed - but instead of base-to-base like the Meltabombs, I think the FF better explains this weapon system if Honda is trying to stay as close as possible to the IA3 core design.

If he wants it to be exactly like IA3, then it has to be thrown and would be AP4+/AT4+. Thrown though means you are going to have to say its a 15cm weapon though due to zone of control situations and its going to get fiddly with counting every other one - I fully agree.

To me - it has to be a FF4+ weapon system.

Thoughts?

Artillary wise if they have a stack of mortars why not let them have Heavy Weapon stands with a griffon (1BP, 30cm) attack? Too much when combined with all the valkries?

Hmm... don't know - would have to see it tested.

Also can the drop squads in IA3 have intergral heavy weapons?

Looking at forgeworld all the heavies seem to be in dedicated squads, not squad support.

1) The hardened vets can have heavy, support + demo charge if I recally...

2) The storm troopers do not have integral heavy weapons

3) Elysian Drop Troop infantry platoons get the demo charge - but I'm not sure if they have the integral heavy.

I'd have to go look up in IA3 here for this one.

4) The Elysian support (squads 6 guys + 3 guns in 40K) are stand alone 40K units that operate independantly.

So in the E:A case - 1) Heavy Weapon Squads and 2) Special Support Weapon Squads of 4 units each would work as two different  'upgrades' to main formations. It just seems to work and make a lot of sense to me.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:42 pm 
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Ok, there's been an explosion of thought in the past few posts and I am going to sit down and absorb them, kick them around a little and then come back in a little bit with some go forward ideas for potential changes.

Really good feedback guys, thanx!

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:46 pm 
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@Honda,

looking forward to the first revision.

Send me a PM when you get it updated.

I'll try to give it a go.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:52 am 
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Its a lot of differention to do with the infantry models - I can do it as I have a lot of all three types of infnatry and heavy weapons :) but others could have problems.

Simplifying it could be to have the regular chaps have no heavy weapons and just demo charges, then 1 or 2 attached heavy weapon squads as standard in the formation and the HQ having a heavy weapon attack.

Looking at your TOE they have more power lifters than sentinels :) so I guess they can load quickly :)

I note the drop infantry companies seem to be a lot bigger than regular guard companies. From the rulebook
Steel Legion regiments consist of a command section comprising a captain and his support staff, one fire support platoon with 10 heavy weapons teams, and three infantry platoons each with 50 men including 5 heavy weapon teams.
This means that a full-strength company will number 175
men.
Whereas the drop chaps seem to have a captain and his support staff, one fire support platoon with command section, 12 heavy weapons teams, and four infantry platoons each with 40 men, 5 man command section and maybe no heavy weapon teams.
This means that a full-strength company will number 214
men, but potentially with a lot less in the way of ranged firepower.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:25 am 
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TRC,

I checked IA3 tonight. This is not conclusive, but gives you an idea...

1 40K Elysian HQ CHOICE is up to 7 different 'independent' units:

0-1 Company Command HQ
officer and 4 staff
- can have a special weapon trooper and a medic trooper
- no demo charge
- Iron Discipline, Deep Strike, Infiltrate
- May have Valkyrie Transport

If you take a company command, you can then take these:
0-2 Fire Support Teams
0-1 Motar Teams (6 men
0-1 Anti-tank Teams
0-2 Special Weapons Teams
NOTE:
 - 6 man teams, 3 IG with heavies & 3 IG per team)
 - all operate as independent units in 40K
 - Each Team has the following:
    - Iron Discipline, Deep Strike, Infiltrate
    - May have Valkyrie Transport

Unlimited Hardened Vet squads - ELITE 40K CHOICE
4-10 men per unit
3 special weapons per unit
- meltagun, plasma gun, sniper
- Instead of one the special weapon, can take a Demo Charge
- No traditional heavies in unit
- Iron Discipline, Deep Strike, Infiltrate
- May have Valkyrie Transport

Unlimited Storm Trooper Squads - ELITE 40K CHOICE
- same as IG
- Deep Strike (NO iron discipline or infiltrate - odd)
- May have Valkyrie Transport

Elysian Drop Platoon - TROOP 40K CHOICE
1 Platoon HQ
- 1 officer & 4 IG
- no demo charges in command
- no traditional heavy weapons
- may have a special weapon troopr and a medic trooper
- Iron Discipline, Deep Strike, Infiltrate
- May have Valkyrie Transport

2-4 Infantry Platoons
- 10 IG
- one can have special weapon
- another can have a Demo charge
(Total up to 5 independent 40K units that make up the single Troop Choice)
- no traditional heavy weapons
- Iron Discipline, Deep Strike, Infiltrate
- May have Valkyrie Transport

So, the only way the force receives 'traditional' heavy weapons is from its heavy Weapon Squads, Sentinels, Vultures, Valkyries, and Navy.

Army doesn't have tanks.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:46 am 
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What does elites mean in 40k?

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