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Elysian Drop Troop

 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:49 pm 
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I would start around 225 to try it out.

It's hard to say how to build the list, though.  180 for a standard garrison sounds about right to me.  Perhaps you should have the ability to teleport be an upgrade so you can put a specific cost on it.  Or you might just make it a separate formation with set cost and probably no available upgrades.


The Sentinels are off, imho.  I think the Drop Sentinels are a definite upgrade.  They lost only a bit of AT ability at 30cm and gained a second shot, 15cm MW.  It's not huge, but I think it is a definite increase.

OTOH, the Support Sentinels don't quite have enough punch to support the point difference.

I should really type this up and save it so I can copy/paste it...

Square Root Rule - the Square Root Rule is an axiom of military planning that says that doubling the firepower of a unit does not double the effectiveness of a unit because the same amount of damamge can still take it out of commission.  It improves it by roughly the square root of 2.  The reverse is true for making something twice as tough - it only puts the same amount of fire downrange.  In order for it to be twice as effective, it would need to be twice as shooty and twice as tough.

This has obvious implications for point-based systems and if you examine units in established armies, you will find they stick pretty closely to this kind of formula.


Drop Sentinels - I would say it's probably not quite half again the firepower.  That would be roughly SQRT(1.5) * 100 points = ~125.

To be honest, that might be a bit too high, as my guess is that it is really less than 1.5x the fire.  It could be tweaked up a bit or dropped a bit to make it come out right, depending on whether you wanted to go for 100 points or 125 for the formation.


Support Sentinels - They cost 1.5x normal.  1.5^2 is 2.25.  That means that, all other factors being equal, the firepower would need to be about double for it to be fairly priced at 150 points.

Simply adding 15cm range definitely does not double their firepower.  I don't even think it really adds half again, but that would be close and put them at ~125.

Personally, I think if they are supposed to actually function as support vehicles, you could seriously rethink them if you wanted.  For example, if they are supposed to be a walker-ized version of mobile gun platforms, you could take away Scout ability and give them the BP weapon you had mentioned earler.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:25 am 
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Very helpful.

Ok, I've updated the cost for each of the infantry units except for the Storm Trooper company. I've also upped the cost for the Drop Sentinel and lowered the cost of the Support Sentinel, so that they are the same 125 points.

I'm going to fiddle with lists this weekend and if I get a chance run a map exercise to see what we're getting into.

Thanx!

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:04 pm 
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You might want to hunt down a couple of the fan lists for Elysians, too.  TrentBartlem did one (I think I have an electronic copy somewhere), Wraith drove extended discussions on what to put in one but I'm not sure he ever drafted one, and there have been a couple other abortive attempts on various forums.

It's surprising how the same basic background is represented in remarkably different ways.

From my personal bias, I'd really like to see an Imperial Lander of some kind, either the Pegasus or the Colossus.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:45 pm 
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You might want to hunt down a couple of the fan lists for Elysians, too. ?TrentBartlem did one (I think I have an electronic copy somewhere), Wraith drove extended discussions on what to put in one but I'm not sure he ever drafted one, and there have been a couple other abortive attempts on various forums.


I've gotten a couple of those, including the one you posted from TB.


It's surprising how the same basic background is represented in remarkably different ways.


And I think that is at the heart of the issue. A majority of those attempts were pre-IA3, when all we really had was fluff and preferences. Since IA3, we now have documentation that details what the Elysians fielded.

Also, the previous lists included several things that the authors wanted or imagined would be used. Now we don't have to guess. IA3 tells us what was there. That list is what I would like to port over to Epic.

As it is, there are still people out there that want to create "drop troop" lists that fit their perception of what that would be, which is fine. I want to build something that others will recognize from IA3, if they should care. Then I don't have to debate whether something should be included or not, for whatever reason.

For the most part, if it is represented in IA3, then it should be in this list.

What I want to create is in order of importance:

1. A list that works and that is fun to play
2. A list that using "spirit of the law" as a guideline, provides as close as possible the TO&E of the IA3 Elysians list. This means to me that the list should feature an airmobile (infantry w/transport) or parachute (i.e. dropping from altitude) force.
3. A list that would be eligible for tournament play



From my personal bias, I'd really like to see an Imperial Lander of some kind, either the Pegasus or the Colossus.


Believe me, I understand and acknowledge that desire.

However, that takes the list down a path where I really don't want to go, but not because that request is unreasonable. It's not and the issue might be revisited at a later point if play test indicates a need.

However, assuming that this list goes through a usual exercise of herding cats (i.e. the development cycle), it's going to receive feedback on how it performs, what it's lacking or has too much of, and what needs adjusting. In each of those cases, I want something to anchor the list to so that when someone gets plugged in later in the cycle, they can understand how we got to the current point.

Otherwise, it's possible to go through endless loops debating how you got to the current point. That exercise will happen to some extent anyway, but if steps can be taken to reduce the number of those events, then it will be easier to maintain the development momentum.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:35 pm 
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Honda,

Hows the list coming along mate? I'm very keen to get a balanced list to use these guys as i have a number of models that would suit.

Not trying to rush you... just curious?

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:49 am 
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All apologies Ortron,

I kept meaning to get over here, but the Necrons and Tau discussions have kept me away.

I have been busy collecting my figs for the eventual army construction phase.

However, back to point on the list, the version that listed in the first post has been updated to the point where I am ready (and so should others) to playtest.

I'm going to run through a few map exercises (a game on paper) just to see what shakes out in the first few games and I'd definitely appreciate any feedback you'd be willing to provide.

My first real game, I want to line up against our local Ork player as I think they have the tools available to just wipe these guys off the table...which will teach me "lots". ?:/

This is the list I'm going to try for the first go around against Space Marines:

Regimental HQ: 1 xSC, 5xValk, 8xInf 525
Storm Trooper Co: 8xST, 4xValk 350
Storm Trooper Co: 8xST, 4xValk 350
Drop Infantry: 1xCommand, 8xInf 225
?Drop Sentinel: 4 x Drop Sentinel 125
Drop Infantry: 1xCommand, 8xInf 225
?Drop Sentinel: 4 x Drop Sentinel 125
Drop Infantry: 1xCommand, 8xInf 225
?Fire Support Pltn: 4xFS ? ? ? ? ? ? 100
Vulture Sqdn: 4xVult ? ? ? ? ? ? 300
Thunderbolt Sqdn: 2xThunderbolts 150
Thunderbolt Sqdn: 2xThunderbolts 150


I look forward to hearing from your games.





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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:00 pm 
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Looks good honda,

How come the sentinels have 2 weapons though(HB & MM)? is this described in IA3? I thought the FW model just had the MM?

I will finish moving in a couple of weeks so then i will get a force together, like it so far!


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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:34 pm 
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How come the sentinels have 2 weapons though(HB & MM)? is this described in IA3? I thought the FW model just had the MM?


Hmm...I'll go back and check. I thought there were two or perhaps I just gave them two to provide a blend of capabilities.

If they only carry one weapon, would the preference be to only feature one? If so, which one?

Also, check out the ongoing map exercise, which I should finish up in the next day or so.

Then to painting...which would require me to finalize a color scheme... :/

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:08 pm 
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Honda,

OK, made it through all three pages here. I didn't know you had championed this cause. I'm glad to hear someone is going to work on this one.

Elysians are something I'm ironically not much of a fan of at 40K scale, but have always liked the idea of them with the advent of Vulture and Vakyrie models in E:A. :)

So cheers for the effort.

Not withstanding the valuable critiques you've already received, something I'm wondering about is sentinels transported by valkyries.

Is that in IA3? I'll have to go back and look. I knew they could transport Stormtroopers, tarantulas, and those remote ordinance machines... but that was all I was aware of.

Just generally speaking here - 40K sentinels seem big for my 40K valkyrie cargo bay in back when I hold them side by side.

This 'Company Upgrades' section has me scratching my head currently.


Elysian Drop Troop Company Upgrades
(Three may be taken per Drop Troop Company)

Fire Support Platoon, 4 x Fire Support units, 100 points
Infantry Platoon, 6 x Infantry units, 150 points
Snipers, 2 x Sniper units, 50 points

Note: These units may purchase Valkyrie transport vehicles. Each Valkyrie costs 40 points. You may take enough Valkyries to transport the whole formation if any are taken, but you may not take more than one Valkyrie per two units in the formation.

If Valkyrie transport is not purchased, then these units may teleport.


Fire Support Platoon, 4 x Fire Support units, 100 points
So would it be legal for me to add fire support (essentially heavy teams) to my storm trooper company?

Would they have regular IG stats or Storm Trooper stats?

This seems very wrong to me.

INITAL FEELING: I think you could explore making these a seperate contingent or only allow them as upgrades to the Elysian Drop Troops Co themselves.

The Elite 'in your face' storm troopers really don't seem to ever take heavy weapons as bolt ons to their units/formations.

Support elements should 'hang back' IMHO. From a 40K background perspective the Heavy Weapons Plattoon of the IG act as a stand alone 'formation' of 1-3 Heavy Weapons teams and have a command HQ with 1 heavy weapon and specialty weapons. This may be a good place to start for a seperate formation of Support.

Infantry Platoon, 6 x Infantry units, 150 points
If these can be added to Elysians or storm troopers - and assuming elisians have different stats that storm troopers - are these run of the mill infantry elisians or are these the storm trooper stats?

I would think you could break these down into 'elisian infantry' upgrade and then have a seperate upgrade that is 'storm trooper infantry' upgrade.

Snipers, 2 x Sniper units, 50 points
Do these fit in this army? At 40K scale, I think they do have them in there... but at this scale things change. This doesn't sit right with me yet if its to be fielded in such a small upgrade.

On the other hand, Ogryns would fit better in this list. They support the steel legion and would seem to be a combat element that could be useful to the Elysians... LOL, I don't think they would ride in a valkyrie without a commissar though. Even then, they have that funny "Its dark in there" rule in 40K when it comes to riding in chimeras. Maybe they aren't good for this list at all after all.

I guess the points I'm going for is there seems to be a strong h-t-h elment missing from this 'rapid strike' list. These are only IG so maybe that just doesn't exist. I'll need to research the IA3 and see what I can make of it.

I think someone mentioned an imperial lander. Marines have such a beast that may fit in this list. I too think at this scale, the Imperials would 'bus' in a large formation of troops/LV's to suit their needs. Something other than Valkyries makes the long haul.

Imperial lander would be a good place to start I'd think. Perhaps one of the recomendations that NH mentioned would even work better - not familiar with them personally.

As Elysians are the 'drop' element, something with planetfall would be in order. Right now - there's a disjointed feel to how the spacecraft get the Valkyries onto the field. That conduit should be defined in a list like this at this scale IMHO.

On to aircraft...


Imperial Navy Aircraft

Fighters, 2 x Thunderbolt fighters, 150 points
Bombers, 2 x Marauder bombers, 300 points


Blah... :)

What a great opportunity to leverage the 'something better' aircraft of the imperium.

Please - whatever you do - do not torcher us Imperial fans with using the same pattern planes that they put into the steel legion list!

Forgeworld after all made the Elysians - could we do them justice and use the Forgeworld aircraft? (I'm begging here!)

Elysians - if any IG force - should have a strong fighter and fighter bomber aircraft section.

I'm thinking... the updated patterns of the following
1. Thunderbolt
2. Lightning
3. Lightning Strike

(forget the thunderbolt pattern that steel legion uses - please!)

I'm not sure if the elysians would field bombers at all...
1. Maurader Bombers
2. Maurader Bomber Destroyers

Like Titans, I might try to see if this list could be built without any use of Superheavy bombers or Titans.

Anyway - that's my input for now. Hopefully something sticks.

PS - I have plenty of steel legion IG, so as this list gets fleshed out, I could definitely put this one to the test. I tend to play my IG much more mobile and I never leave home without one unit of Vultures and one unit of Storm Troopers in Valkyries - they are just staples to me.

PS2 - with my steel legion, I tend to rely on sturdy ground formations such as shadowswords and lemans to deal with the heaviest of armor - it will be interesting to see if the Elysians are going to be able to hold up with enemy armor heavy formations - or assault heavy armies.

Great job so far Honda!




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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:12 pm 
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.... something I'm wondering about is sentinels transported by valkyries.

Is that in IA3? I'll have to go back and look. I knew they could transport Stormtroopers, tarantulas, and those remote ordinance machines... but that was all I was aware of.

Just generally speaking here - 40K sentinels seem big for my 40K valkyrie cargo bay in back when I hold them side by side.

I'd bet the Sentinel with legs all folded up and bent as far back as possible, and telescoped down to the shortest length, could fit (1 Sentinel per Valk, of course). A special lightweight lanky Elysian-model Sentinel would be nice too...

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:15 pm 
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Quote (vanvlak @ 20 Feb. 2006 (14:12))
.... something I'm wondering about is sentinels transported by valkyries.

Is that in IA3? I'll have to go back and look. I knew they could transport Stormtroopers, tarantulas, and those remote ordinance machines... but that was all I was aware of.

Just generally speaking here - 40K sentinels seem big for my 40K valkyrie cargo bay in back when I hold them side by side.

I'd bet the Sentinel with legs all folded up and bent as far back as possible, and telescoped down to the shortest length, could fit (1 Sentinel per Valk, of course). A special lightweight lanky Elysian-model Sentinel would be nice too...

Vanvalak,

True... but then I can't help but wonder how 'rapid deploy' that thing is.

Almost seems like you'd have to unload it, then transform it into the appropriate shape and hook up the necessary hydrolics, then man the thing.

My understanding was that in a drop force, the Sentinels were grav-chute dropped from lower atmosphere fliers much larger than Valkyries so they could land battle ready like the rest of the force.

I need to go read IA3 Elysians again I think... blow the cobwebs off of the archives in my head regarding all things Elysians since the list looks like its going to get some legs...

Much to my liking by the way Honda!! :)

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:44 pm 
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Honda,

OK, made it through all three pages here. I didn't know you had championed this cause. I'm glad to hear someone is going to work on this one.


I?ve been interested in an airmobile IG since the Elysians were first mentioned in the 40K Armageddon campaign. I just didn?t want to model them back then. When I heard the FW was going to come out with them, I was overjoyed?until I saw the price.
Now in Epic, I feel like I can truly field them and use them in a way that suits their capabilities. There?s part of me that has a deathwish to field them in 40K somehow, but that?s another story for another time.


Elysians are something I'm ironically not much of a fan of at 40K scale, but have always liked the idea of them with the advent of Vulture and Vakyrie models in E:A. ?

So cheers for the effort.


Unfortunately, I must find myself in the ?fan boy? category when it comes to these models, regardless of the scale. I just love ?em.


Not withstanding the valuable critiques you've already received, something I'm wondering about is sentinels transported by valkyries.

Is that in IA3? I'll have to go back and look. I knew they could transport Stormtroopers, tarantulas, and those remote ordinance machines... but that was all I was aware of.


Yes, a Valkyrie can transport a single Sentinel or they can deep strike.


Just generally speaking here - 40K sentinels seem big for my 40K valkyrie cargo bay in back when I hold them side by side.


There you go doing that ?reality? thing again. I thought I warned you about that before. Remember, we?re playing with toy soldiers.


This 'Company Upgrades' section has me scratching my head currently.


Quote

Elysian Drop Troop Company Upgrades
(Three may be taken per Drop Troop Company)

Fire Support Platoon, 4 x Fire Support units, 100 points
Infantry Platoon, 6 x Infantry units, 150 points
Snipers, 2 x Sniper units, 50 points

Note: These units may purchase Valkyrie transport vehicles. Each Valkyrie costs 40 points. You may take enough Valkyries to transport the whole formation if any are taken, but you may not take more than one Valkyrie per two units in the formation.

If Valkyrie transport is not purchased, then these units may teleport.



Fire Support Platoon, 4 x Fire Support units, 100 points
So would it be legal for me to add fire support (essentially heavy teams) to my storm trooper company?


This is why you guys are looking at this. Stormtroopers do not get any upgrades. I didn?t realize that when I moved them into the company section that some might think that they?d get them. So I?ll update the list. Good catch!


Infantry Platoon, 6 x Infantry units, 150 points
If these can be added to Elysians or storm troopers - and assuming elisians have different stats that storm troopers - are these run of the mill infantry elisians or are these the storm trooper stats?

I would think you could break these down into 'elisian infantry' upgrade and then have a seperate upgrade that is 'storm trooper infantry' upgrade.


So these are only for Elysian troops and I will correct that.


Snipers, 2 x Sniper units, 50 points
Do these fit in this army? At 40K scale, I think they do have them in there... but at this scale things change. This doesn't sit right with me yet if its to be fielded in such a small upgrade.


I added these because they are modeled at the 40K scale (included in the Elysian list) and I liked the flavor they added. Via my Tau Pathfinders, I?m learning to really like the Sniper ability and I?m thinking that including snipers might be one way for the Elysians to take on Tyranids as well as other lists where leaders/characters are featured.


On the other hand, Ogryns would fit better in this list. They support the steel legion and would seem to be a combat element that could be useful to the Elysians... LOL, I don't think they would ride in a valkyrie without a commissar though. Even then, they have that funny "Its dark in there" rule in 40K when it comes to riding in chimeras. Maybe they aren't good for this list at all after all.


If you go back to look at the approach I took, I am modeling the Elysians as close as to how they were depicted in IA3 as I possibly can. That means, not adding in other stuff to make them better if they are challenged in a particular area. This won?t be a super tournament list. It might be competitive against some armies. In particular, I wonder about lists that can just steam roller the infantry. This list is all about mobility, so it might end up being a super scenario list. I don?t know, that?s why I want others to play it and beat on it.

However, one thing I am pretty adamant about and that is that how they are depicted in IA3 is how I want them to operate. It will save an awful lot of debating if there?s ever a question on what I?m doing. I can just point to the source and say, ?this is why I did it this way?.


I guess the points I'm going for is there seems to be a strong h-t-h elment missing from this 'rapid strike' list. These are only IG so maybe that just doesn't exist. I'll need to research the IA3 and see what I can make of it.


Yes, these guys are not going to be HtH masters. The Stormtroopers should be able to add a fair amount of assault capability, which is why I made them a company instead of leaving them a bolt on, but nasty HtH armies aren?t going to be too upset with the Elysians in a fist fight.


I think someone mentioned an imperial lander. Marines have such a beast that may fit in this list. I too think at this scale, the Imperials would 'bus' in a large formation of troops/LV's to suit their needs. Something other than Valkyries makes the long haul.

Imperial lander would be a good place to start I'd think. Perhaps one of the recomendations that NH mentioned would even work better - not familiar with them personally.

As Elysians are the 'drop' element, something with planetfall would be in order. Right now - there's a disjointed feel to how the spacecraft get the Valkyries onto the field. That conduit should be defined in a list like this at this scale IMHO.


See above.


On to aircraft...


Quote

Imperial Navy Aircraft

Fighters, 2 x Thunderbolt fighters, 150 points
Bombers, 2 x Marauder bombers, 300 points



Blah... ?

What a great opportunity to leverage the 'something better' aircraft of the imperium.

Please - whatever you do - do not torcher us Imperial fans with using the same pattern planes that they put into the steel legion list!

Forgeworld after all made the Elysians - could we do them justice and use the Forgeworld aircraft? (I'm begging here!)

Elysians - if any IG force - should have a strong fighter and fighter bomber aircraft section.

I'm thinking... the updated patterns of the following
1. Thunderbolt
2. Lightning
3. Lightning Strike

(forget the thunderbolt pattern that steel legion uses - please!)

I'm not sure if the elysians would field bombers at all...
1. Maurader Bombers
2. Maurader Bomber Destroyers


I don?t mind adding the Lightning and the Marauder Destroyer at all. I think the Elysians are going to need something to deal with really tough targets and they may be what?s called for.

However, I?ll leave that for a next version kind of thing. I want to get the basics down fairly solid, then we?ll add the chrome wheels.



Like Titans, I might try to see if this list could be built without any use of Superheavy bombers or Titans.


There should be some lists that absolutely munch them?maybe. Again, if they can take things like the Lightning Strike Fighter or Marauder Destroyer, then perhaps they?ll have a way to deal with them.

However, if it came down to not being able to deal with Titans very well as the one thing that would allow them to be tournament legal, then I would take that approach.



Anyway - that's my input for now. Hopefully something sticks.

PS - I have plenty of steel legion IG, so as this list gets fleshed out, I could definitely put this one to the test. I tend to play my IG much more mobile and I never leave home without one unit of Vultures and one unit of Storm Troopers in Valkyries - they are just staples to me.

PS2 - with my steel legion, I tend to rely on sturdy ground formations such as shadowswords and lemans to deal with the heaviest of armor - it will be interesting to see if the Elysians are going to be able to hold up with enemy armor heavy formations - or assault heavy armies.



Well, you don?t have to sign a release form, so get to it soldier!

:/

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:36 am 
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Honda,

LOL, you get that list in something a bit more official looking that I can share with the chaps, and I'll put it to the test.

The guys hate playing with something that's not at least in a word or excel document that I can share with them in advance of the game.

That solely 'off the forums' feel never sits well it seems.

PS - you planning on getting this into the vault or will it remain fain list/army/whatever?

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:19 am 
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I have a Word version of the list that I can send you.

However, I want to get the feedback from the ongoing exercise, along with those who are observing, and then I'll be in a spot where I think the list is "publishable" (pardon the non-English).

As far a the eventual end point of this list, the vault would be something to aspire to and assuming the list is popular enough, it just might get there.

Thanx again for your input.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:27 am 
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Perhaps CS could give you a location where you could store the document.

BTW: on the planes... somebody posted a 'what if' version of all the planes some time ago... they had all the current 'patterns' of the planes in that document with the appropriate weapon load outs. I used to have a copy of that somewhere... Hmm...

yeah, please PM me a copy of the list - heh, or just email it to me actually if you don't mind. That would be easier. ;)

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