Tactical Command
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Elysian Air Units
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=6770		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Honda [ Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
This section is intended to support discussions on Elysian air formations.
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
I believe we need to include the varied units that are depicted in the back of IA3 - especially the Vulture and Valkyrie unit (although not exactly air units).  

These are a core part of the Elysian force, and no commander should be leaving home without properly scheduled air support assets - to pick up the slack in case they run into anything unexpected that IG Intel didn't tell them about (that would never happen).
Author:  ortron [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
It would be nice to include all the various aircraft in this list. This would help set the list appart and make up for some of the lost units. So basically, thunderbolts, lightnings, all the maruder types...

Actually what would be nice is an updated navy list that all imperial forces could draw from.

keep up the good work
Author:  Honda [ Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
A couple things:

1. There will be time to look into Vulture/Valkyrie variants at a later date. Right now, we need to focus on the ground units and get them where we want to test them.

Then while that effort is continuing, we can work on formalizing the "experimental" aircraft, getting the points and unit sizes right, then fold those into the list.

I have included the "standard" Steel Legion aircraft so that the list has some air assets to draw upon, until we can get the new versions solid.

Also, as far as updating the Thunderbolt stats, I'm not going to do that. There is a clear precedent that you do not have two weapon systems with the same name. No Thunderbolt from List A and List B.

So, I'm going to focus on the Lightning versions and if people  want to use their Thunderbolts for "counts as" then they can.
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
So does this really mean - all aircraft development is what it is and we're leaving it that way in the list for now?

Cheers,
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
Hmm, I have an article ready for SG that is waiting on my brother in the uk finding the scenario I was playtesting for it - I only brought half of it with me! This half does have all the stuff that was discussed ont he old boards and that got tested a bit by me and writen up - want it?

In fact, here it is.

Then again its 200k, email if you want it :)
Author:  Honda [ Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
@Tactica,


So does this really mean - all aircraft development is what it is and we're leaving it that way in the list for now?

Cheers


What this means is that all the comments/corrections that went on this week, will get folded into a new version (2.1). Then I will have that version posted so that we can play test.

In the mean time, we can start looking at the aircraft. We'll talk, laugh, fall in love and then get all those recommendations into a version update (2.11).

Then we have a full list to playtest.

However, I don't want to hold up all progress while some things are outstanding because at this stage a quick turnaround is more important to get us to the next level of testing.

After we marry up the ground+air stuff, fiddle with that for awhile, then we have our baseline to start comparing, letting TRC do his stress testing if he is inclined and has the time, plus put together a lot of really cool battle reports.  :/

So, that's where I see things going in the next couple of weeks.

I am targeting late March/early April for this baseline version.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
Unfortuently I have no idea when I can next get any games in :(
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
Well... I'd say post the stats of what you are starting with as far as the armageddon pattern lightnings and thunderbolts, and then lets go from there.

The sooner we get them worked out, the sooner we can disband the very very dated and non IA3 and non-Elysian cypri mundi versions of the craft in the list. :/

Cheers,
Author:  Cosmic Serpent [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
I'm kind of the opinion that we should be using the Marauder Destroyer that is designed for ground assault roles (kind of makes sense, doesn't it)?  

As far as Lightning or Thunderbolts - I really feel we should be using the Strike version of the Lightning (again, it is designed for ground support roles) - and we have stats for it from IA3.

We should also be using the updated Thunderbolt stats that are listed in IA3 - they have made the precedent to actually correct the stats in that book, so why woiuldn't we?  Maybe we use the missile variant as described in IA3 - or we could use the bomb variant, but I would just stick with one version for now.

That would give us a Marauder variant, a Lightning variant, and a Thunderbolt variant - all fit in fluff wise as they are designed specifically for ground support operations.  I think three different aircraft are enough for us to play with - you add on top of that two configs of the Valkyrie (if we decide to go that way - but I'm fine with one) and mutlple Vulture configurations (personally I would like to settle on two - one AP version, one AT version).  

That amounts to a fair amount of aerial firepower and vehicle configs - you want missiiles, take a pair of Lightning Strike fighters, You want some direct fire weapons, then we've got the Marauder Destoyer - leaves you with lots of options.
Author:  Honda [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
@CosmicS

Did you get the updated version of the list that I emailed you on Saturday?


I'm kind of the opinion that we should be using the Marauder Destroyer that is designed for ground assault roles (kind of makes sense, doesn't it)?


This option will be available in the list. The existing Thunderbolt and Marauder versions are only place holders. Once the air stats have been worked over some, the SL T&M will go away.

 

As far as Lightning or Thunderbolts - I really feel we should be using the Strike version of the Lightning (again, it is designed for ground support roles) - and we have stats for it from IA3.


There is no reason to limit the type of Lightnings to just the Strike fighter. Keep in mind that the list supports zero AA options on the ground.


We should also be using the updated Thunderbolt stats that are listed in IA3 - they have made the precedent to actually correct the stats in that book, so why woiuldn't we?  Maybe we use the missile variant as described in IA3 - or we could use the bomb variant, but I would just stick with one version for now.


Although I understand the desire to see these aircraft, as stated before, you cannot have one weapon systems with different weapons from different lists. Hence the desire to for the Elysians to focus on the Lightning.

What you are brining up is really a SL/SM issue and should be addressed there.



That would give us a Marauder variant, a Lightning variant, and a Thunderbolt variant - all fit in fluff wise as they are designed specifically for ground support operations.  I think three different aircraft are enough for us to play with - you add on top of that two configs of the Valkyrie (if we decide to go that way - but I'm fine with one) and mutlple Vulture configurations (personally I would like to settle on two - one AP version, one AT version).  


One of the things that we may end up doing is putting "variants" in a "Collectors" section, like the Tau list features. However, we're not going to change the basic stats of aircraft/vehicles that exist in other lists.

All good thoughts...
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
Quote (Cosmic Serpent @ 20 Mar. 2006 (08:52))



That would give us a Marauder variant, a Lightning variant, and a Thunderbolt variant - all fit in fluff wise as they are designed specifically for ground support operations. ?I think three different aircraft are enough for us to play with - you add on top of that two configs of the Valkyrie (if we decide to go that way - but I'm fine with one) and mutlple Vulture configurations (personally I would like to settle on two - one AP version, one AT version). ?

That amounts to a fair amount of aerial firepower and vehicle configs - you want missiiles, take a pair of Lightning Strike fighters, You want some direct fire weapons, then we've got the Marauder Destoyer - leaves you with lots of options.

CosmS,

We see eye to eye here - well mostly. I see no reason not to have both versions of the lightning and Maurader. I also agree that the latest armageddon thunderbolt should absolutely be in use.

To me, this is just something that has to be done. The right aircraft is just as important as the right infantry in this list!

If we just need a place holder, then use the place holders that Forgeworld defined as a starting point. There's no reason to get people used to dated aircraft that absolutely do not belong in this list.

If IA3 is the precident - fine, start there and lets get the right craft in there.

This list is meant to have a very strong aircraft base - not dated cypri mundi bargain basement planes of old. :p

Seriously, the list relies on aircraft to be a rain maker and is a big draw to playing the list. "Aircav with Airsupport!"

Lets get the right craft in sooner rather than later and quit doing this list an injustice.



:p
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
@ Honda,

One of the things that we may end up doing is putting "variants" in a "Collectors" section, like the Tau list features. However, we're not going to change the basic stats of aircraft/vehicles that exist in other lists.


I don't think he's asking you to change basic stats. I think he's asking that we use the appropriate "pattern" (that's an IG term) for the vehicle used by the Elysians.

You see...

[screen goes blurry and fades into IG wisdom flashback]

Every IG vehicle, tank, and aircraft is made on a particular Forgeworld by the ancient (and sometimes questionable) ways of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

[images of entire worlds as an assembly line]

Vehicles and aircraft made on Cypri Mundi are called the Cypri Mundi pattern vehicle.

[note the substandard work ethic and the ork like management. Shoddy craftsmenship would be a compliment in some cases. The inquisition is pretty sure the Adeptus Mechanicus on this planet are puttin the majority of their efforts into things other than Imperial construction. They are constantly under the inquisitional eye of scrutany]

Their are several other and far more renown forgeworlds. Some of them are humungus by comparison to Cypri Mundi - such as Armageddon. One of the larger forgeworlds...

[Note the titantic spires cities, the toxic wastes and the site of at least 3 major incursions to plunder the planet, be overcome by awe at the sheer volume of production by multiple space ports and hive spires that reach into the stratosphere

...and yet, there are even larger. Mars and Lucius are some of the most valued by the Imperium and very close to Terra.

[machine sculptures and iconography adorn the metallic planet's surface, massive titans and SHT are produced in multiple bases covering the planets surface - a true site to behold - the Imperium's finest]

Arvus
- Lighter Landing Craft
- Aquilla Lander
Armageddon
- Sentinel (armored with lascannon)
- Thunderbolt
- Maurader Bomber
- Maurader Bomber Destroyer
- Lightning Fighter
- Lightning Strike Fighter
- Basalisk (armored version)
- Medusa (armored version)
Artemia
- Hellhound
Esysia
- Drop Sentinel (2 variants, HB and MM)
- Support Sentinel (2 variants, MRP and Indirect capable ML)
Cypri Mundi
- Thunderbolt (GW MODEL)
- Maurader Bomber (GW MODEL)
Graia
- Hellhound
Gryphonne IV
- Chimera Autocannon Turret
- Chimera Twin-linked Heavy Bolter turret
- Conqurer
- Vanquisher
- Exterminator
Lucius
- Warhound Titans
- Baneblade (Maxamillion Wiesman's)
Mars
- Warhound itans
- Baneblade
- Shadowsword
Mars Alpha
- Vanquisher
- Leman Russ
Vanahiem
- Griffon Heavy Mortar
- Medusa
- Basalisk
Ryza
- Stormblade (Shadowsword Plasma Blast Gun variant)
- Leman Russ
- Executioner
Stygies VIII
- Vanquisher

[fades back to present virtual forum reality on epicomms]

...you'll notice that things like vanquishers, titans, baneblades, leman russ, chimeras and all sorts of vehicles - even thunderbolts and Maurader bombers - are made on more than one forgeworld. As a result, the weapon outfit changes many times.

I understand CosmS to have the same request as I do... DO NOT use the Cypri Mundi patteron planes... PLEASE - use the ARMAGEDDON pattern planes as intended by the real like UK Forgeworld. That's the Thunderbolt, Maurader Bomber, Lightning, Lightning Strike, and Maurther Destroyer that was intended in IA3 - Cypri Mundi and their vehicle patterns are not even a recognized forgeworld in IA3 so they should absolutely NOT be part of the Elysian list!

Its a fluff violation if nothing more! :)

Cheers,
Author:  jfrazell [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
The issue you are going to run into with the revised pattern planes as placeholders are that
1) We're not certain of the caliber of the placeholding planes and their stats put forth by FW (others like myself don't have a reference point to begin).

2) Without that certainty you are still looking at a prototype plane.

3) Personally I'd rather hold the aircraft constant in V2 to lock down the other items via a few games playtesting. ?Then we can play with the aircraft. ?We've already got sentinels, mortars, HVets and generic trooper variables to work through. ?The existing aircraft procvide a decent mix of assault and antiaircraft, allowing us to focus on these other items. ?

Frankly if the aircraft "tip the scales," then I don't think the list will be viewed favorably, but may be viewed in the context of "cheesy aircraft list" which I don't think is the focus of this bad boy.
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Elysian Air Units
John,

All points well met. I guess my question is - will this list be based on good aircraft, or will aircraft just be a tertiary concern later.

If the focus is to have drop infantry and just give them some air support - OK, then they are tertiary and whatever we want to throw on there later will be fine.

If the goal is really to get solid aircraft and solid vehicles to support the Elysians, great - then that's the focus and the good aircraft should be a core component.

Any IG player will tell you - its not the IG that win or lose the game, its their toys.

Be that their guns, their aircraft, their tanks - doesn't matter. Basic IG infantry stink - regardless of how elite you make them. If we are going to hold to that philosophy, Elysians - even in 40K - win by their toys, the men are the clean up crews after the toys have made their mark.

The approach doesn't matter to me in the end - but I guess I just thought we were going to take a bit of a different approach than 'bolt the planes on later'.

If that's the vision, I'm a bit disappointed, but no worries.
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