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Proposed Cadia ver2.0

 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:26 pm 
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RugII wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
Cadia should be flexible the theme being NATO vs SLs Warsaw pact. Meaning seeing things like more independent support formations than SL. That being said, core Kasrkin don't sit right with me.


That’s largely represented by the more substantial support formations available and smaller core options.


I agree. That was less directed at you than making it explicit in the conversation :)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:06 pm 
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Played two games on the weekend.

The list is quite interesting. Teleporting Kasrkins add a very nice tactical flexibility that (almost) no other IG list has.

The possibilities are many. Even a super-horde army with Infantry Companies+White Shields+Cheap Upgrades.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:51 pm 
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First of all thanks RugII for taking the list.

I am quite late to the party: i saw this a bit after it was added but i could not join in at first and later forgot to do so. When you created this version i was making some battle reports with this list but with the current changes i think there is no point in finishing them, as they were all about Kasrkin on foot's spam, and i do not see the list going back to allow that formation on core, even with changes.

We will play with this version from now onwards so expect some battle reports soon if the virus lets us.

RugII wrote:
There’s part of me that wishes the 1.5 Cadian list was made tournament legal so the attitude that the Cadian list is being crippled is seen in the light it should be. If a 1.5 Cadian list was taken to the European Championship there’d have been a lot of very annoyed people, it was overpowered and open to massive abuse, to some extent you’re going to have to take my word on that though I’ve a few demonstration ideas in mind if it comes to it.

175pts for 8 infantry units (with all the benefits that entails) with good initiative, good AP and AT shooting, good armour, and access to good upgrades and Shadowswords for support.... is way too cheap. A few lists have this problem (Ferals and Ghaz’s Horde) but usually it’s with a model which isn’t all that available, but anyone with lots of Guard infantry models can just “counts as” them as Kasrkin. When you can squeeze 21 quality formations in an army it raises concerns.

I agree with this, but for me the issue was more that it felt like this lists was the ''nails of the Emperor'' more than the Hammer, with all of the popcorn and the support doing the job, instead of how Baran plays even if they can get to that activation count.

RugII wrote:
We’ve learnt from the Kreig list that massed infantry in super heavy transports is VERY powerful, and 275pts for Kasrkin in a Stormlord would be a steal! We’ve also learned that if upgrades cost too much people will always opt to take additional activations instead. The Kasrkin in Stormlord base core formation has a surcharge, but the Stormlord upgrade is one of those which is discounted.

I agree with and support your reasoning, but i think that +100 for a Stormlord enters on the stupidly cheap range, on a unit that doesn't need that and is like a Baneblade or Stormhammer with option for cheap and low cost nearly unsuppressible AA, and transport with FF and shooting cheese from the platform which smells like the one from Krieg, which has not been reported till now as a problem or had changes because of the miniature's heavy scarcity. I know that transports should not cost the same as when they go alone but even with that i think it should cost at least +125 as an upgrade.

RugII wrote:
3) Poor list flavour with common builds - lots of Kasrkin make the army more like [...] or niche heavy infantry list.

jimmyzimms wrote:
That being said, core Kasrkin don't sit right with me.

I think there is a misunderstanding here: the list's main theme at least since Chroma submitted it to Fanatic in 2007 was about Kasrkin (on Chimeras by default back then), and Psykers second, and without them the list was no different from Steel Legion without tanks on the core options. Also background wise Cadia's theme is on elite and better trained overall troops, which Kasrkin on core represent well on the infantry side of the army.
What i agree with is that the infantry Company should appeal to more people.

RugII wrote:
1) Kasrkin are elite troops wearing heavy armour, they don’t walk!

They walk the same as normal infantry, for a number of reasons, but i understand and agree with the gameplay side of the change.

RugII wrote:
2) Whiteshields are no longer a cheap 0-1 no brainer formation, they can be included in a variety of ways more than once but don’t allow access to support formation. Their inclusion presents an interesting dilemma as they reduce the initiative of the formation they’re added to.

Well, they were stupidly cheap because almost no one was taking them and activate on 3+ but this option is interesting too. We will test and see.

RugII wrote:
3) The Ordinatus is cheaper and the crit not as bad, it has also lost Inspiring... the rationale is that it was/is rubbish, the explosion was bigger than a battle titan's but the unit only has a fraction of the firepower, and Cadians do not revere Ordinatus like the Mechanicus so won't find it Inspiring or its loss so hard.

Yeah, you did the right thing here, but i would expect them to have the dispersion field (Inv) they had on the background instead of power fields which i do not understand why they have on the Skitarii list. Also on NetEA the same weapons cannot have different stats so those heavy bolters need to change the name, but as they never had AA on previous editions and the list has more ground AA than most Guard lists i do not think they should have it.

RugII wrote:
4) The Leman Rus support formation cheaper as there are just better options at 400pts.

I think that it is more of a problem that the other options are too good or undercosted more than the Leman Russ overcosted, and six strong Leman Russ formations were always more popular than ten.

RugII wrote:
I'm tempted to suggest taking Shadowswords out to further differentiate the list from the Steel Legion, it shouldn't be crippling as Cadians are not short on heavy firepower! But this is a discussion for another day.

I am up to talk about taking things out but as you say it is better to focus first on other parts of the list.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:05 pm 
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This list originated from E&C if I'm not mistaken and didn't have kasrkin in Core

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:08 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
This list originated from E&C if I'm not mistaken and didn't have kasrkin in Core


Did a bit of an investigation and, before Uvenlord in 2015 this list was taken by Spectral Ghost on 2011 and the previous subAC to him was E&C in 2010, who says that he took Chroma's list and modified it, and all of the versions have Kasrkin as core.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Hello all! Rug has asked me to champion the Cadian Shock Troops army list, following up on the good work done by E&C. E&C has kindly allowed me to use his original file to build on, and has provided some excellent help in getting to the current state.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
It's been a couple of years since Chroma posted his Cadian list, and I'm not aware that anyone's picked it up to play it regularly.
However, I'm looking at making a Cadian army some time soonish (After I've finished painting up my Tau and Elysian armies), and I've poked at Chroma's list a bit.

I think it's a good base to work from, but undesirable as a list to play currently, for me, anyway.

So, changes I've proposed:


Still does not matter much the original but that Kasrkin has been the base and the theme of the list since a long ago, at least 2007.

EDIT: while i was searching for another thing, i found that Chroma's maybe is not the first one and he based it on another, which was on the SG forum around 2005. This one is also based around Kasrkin and also have the Capitolis, with some stats that look more like something that would be made nowadays. :D
https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... =74&t=7763

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Last edited by Abetillo on Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:30 pm 
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best type of correct: absolute :)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:52 pm 
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Wow that old thread is gold, I came up with the same idea 10 years later:

Quote:
KASRKIN COMMAND
Kasrkin company commanders are tasked with leading an entire company of Kasrkin - invariably the same company from which they were promoted. Renowned for their tradition of leading from the fore, Kasrkin commanders quickly become even more brutally efficient in battle than the troops they lead.

Type Speed Armour CC Firefight
Infantry 15cm 5+ 4+ 4+

Weapon Range Firepower
Hellguns (15cm) Small Arms
Chainswords (base contact) Assault weapons
2 x Plasma guns 15cm AP5+/AT5+
Notes: Commander, Infiltrator, Leader

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:06 pm 
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I haven't posted in here in a whilie, and i just had a chane to re-read this thread.

Pretty sure Australia will just stay with the 1.5 version of the list for tournaments as we feel it was balanced for the Australian meta.
We've done it in the past when we've found an updated list from taccoms does not relect a good change for players wanting to collecta specific theme etc.
We're pretty flexible on what you want to bring aslong in terms of developmental and even experimental lists as long as you're not trying to "game" the system too much. TO's can always ask you to re-submit.

And we do look at how some armies go in evernts when things do slip under the radar. The eldar titan list is banned, Squats can use the old 1.5 list but overlords are limited. We don't use EpicUK lists except the Nid one as no-one is a fan of the NetEA one, though Dagon is now allowed as it's a fun change.

Just on a comment ealier in the thread on ferals not being a problem becasue models are hard to come by. That should never be a justification in this day in age of 3d printing and redibly available proxies.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:51 pm 
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Would be nice to see a fork of this for Epic-AU

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:00 pm 
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Possibly a good time to point out Epic AU is not the whole of the Aus Epic scene...

there's a small group that are keen on the Heresy lists, but the main east coast events (Castle Assault, Cancon) use the NetEA lists, with the modifications Mard mentioned. Certainly for the Newcastle group for the last few years (hosts of Castle Assault), Heresy games are rare, hence the focus on trying to get positive results on the EA lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:27 am 
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Mard wrote:
I haven't posted in here in a whilie, and i just had a chane to re-read this thread.

Pretty sure Australia will just stay with the 1.5 version of the list for tournaments as we feel it was balanced for the Australian meta.
We've done it in the past when we've found an updated list from taccoms does not relect a good change for players wanting to collecta specific theme etc.
We're pretty flexible on what you want to bring aslong in terms of developmental and even experimental lists as long as you're not trying to "game" the system too much. TO's can always ask you to re-submit.

And we do look at how some armies go in evernts when things do slip under the radar. The eldar titan list is banned, Squats can use the old 1.5 list but overlords are limited. We don't use EpicUK lists except the Nid one as no-one is a fan of the NetEA one, though Dagon is now allowed as it's a fun change.

Just on a comment ealier in the thread on ferals not being a problem becasue models are hard to come by. That should never be a justification in this day in age of 3d printing and redibly available proxies.


Glad to see such a sensible post. We are from the same school of thought.

Anyways I don't dislike this new version anymore because it feels even more "elite", and I'll keep playtesting it. But the one allowed here in events will probably be 1.5 too.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:30 pm 
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To be honest the Australian meta has always been difficult to cater for as it’s such an outlier. So long as tournament organisers are aware of the risks posed by the older list it shouldn’t be an issue.

If I were an Australian tournament organiser I would start to getting suspicious of list of 13 activations or more and any more than 4 of the same formation (after upgrades). Whatever excuse is wheeled out, intentionally or not it’s a list which relays on exploiting activation advantage at the expense of variety (for the interest of both participants). Same could be said for most lists really!


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:45 am 
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guess il throw my hat into the ring and help try to break 2.0

here is what I came up with

Reg HQ -550
infy co - 400 (with two white shield platoons and sabers at 50 pnt)
infy co - 400 (with two white shield platoons and sabers at 50 pnt)
mech Kas in stormlord - 375
mech Kas in stormlord - 375
Kas - 200
Kas - 200
shadowsword - 200
shadowsword - 200
thunderbolts - 150
thunderbolts - 150

so that is 11 total activations, I feel I can easily fit more in there and still make an effective list, I really think the whiteshields should be a one of upgrade or should have and even worse downside. That being said It wouldn't be cadia if one of your options wasn't to just throw guardsmen at the problem until its solved so I like the idea of where its going. When things resume or if i convince my dad to play ill give this list a try, I suspect it will do really well. I feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds of the flexible nature of the Kasrkin and the abilty to have sentient road blocks with the infantry companies. Any thoughts on my list and my comments?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:59 am 
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Rug - could you maybe put together a proper list document with all the stats included please? I had to go looking for a previous version to find them and I’m not sure if 1.56 is the most recent previous list for them or not?

I wasn’t really familiar with the list but it looks like an excellent match for the guard army I’m collecting and painting up this year and I’m more keen to play it than other guard lists. I’m working on a large guard army with a mix of high tech mechanised Solar Auxilla (30k era Storm Trooper equivalents) alongside Krieg PDF with lower crappier tech and stuff pulled by horses. The contrast and variety appeals to me. I digress, but after I have an army painted up (perhaps the summer or the autumn) I’d be up doing some playtesting of the list with some of the Bristol players.

Are Cadian Basilisks any different from normal ones? 200 seems too cheap with them 225 in Net-EA and 250 in Epic UK. 6 BP from the Griffon version seems potent even if short ranged too. 225 seems a more sensible price for the formation to me.

I see you’re not keen on Shadowswords. Rather than removing them could you make them 225 in the list rather than the 200 they usually are? It could make them less an auto include but not piss people off by removing them entirely from the list.

You have just given me a reason to get some Stormlords and buy the new Marauder Colossus model :)


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:45 pm 
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Also Cadian Sentinels are problematic and too good currently. They have longer ranged guns, better armour, a larger formation to make them harder to break and yet you have them at a cheaper cost per unit than regular sentinels.

For one thing I strongly suggest you keep Cadian Sentinels at a 6+ save as their 40k stats don’t justify a 5+. It is true that the armoured sentinel Cadian’s use is slightly tougher in 40k – having a 3+ save rather than a 4+ save. It’s a negligible difference in the scheme of things though and still a very fragile thing with only T5 and 6 wounds for an armoured sentinel, which is nowhere close to the resilience of a Chimera with T7 and 10 wounds.

As well as this change I think you should bump the cost up to 150 for 6, same cost as regular sentinels. Perhaps even 175 for 6 since they have longer ranged guns.


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