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Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=34293		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Deb [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List?
I have the Preliminary summary for these options, and why they were chosen for the poll (constraints on what can and can not be done) for this poll in the ELysian Drop Troop Regiment Army list 4.x thread Page 3.

Comments made by various people will be there if you want to read them. If you want to just choose from the options without any influence then just vote.

Although this vote will help me decide which option to put forward as I really think this list needs a ground based AA formation, the final decision rests on the Imperial Guards AM, and the ERC.

Option 1 is for a modificatoin of the unit I already have put forward - now called the Elysian light air transportable AA gun which is towed by a light all terrain LV. AA gun has a move of 10cm, LV no save no CC FF of 5+ a range 30 cm weapon. All terrain LV has a save of 6+ armed with a Heavy Stubber, and moves 25cm. Both are air transportable onto 1 Valkyrie transport, or can be dropped in. 4 of each for 125 points.

Option 2 is the Sabre weapons platform LV, moves 10cm, no save, range 30cm AA, towed by a standard chimera. You get 4 of each for 175 points.

Option 3 is just the Sabre Weapons Platform. 6 Sabres for 125 points. They move 10cm, LV with no save, and a weapon range of 30cm. They will be air droppable, and can fit 2 onto a Valkyrie.

Option 4 is the Blitzen AA weapons mount, LV, no save, move of 0cm, range 60 cm, towed by Brunehilde gun tractor, LV, moves 15cm, no save and mounts a heavy stubber. 4 of each for 150 points.

Option 5 is the Taurus Venator Elysian AA variant. In all respects the same as a venator, however the weapon is replaced by a range 30 AA weapon. One per Taurus formation at the normal price.

Option 6 is No ground based AA formations at all. Just rely upon the current Lightning Squadron (4 Lightning Fighters) and the Lightning Strike Squadron (2 Lightning Strike Fighters).
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
#1 is the best choice in IMO … as if for no other reason it is the most like in RW.

AA units are very important in the RL and in Epic now with the plethora of aircraft brought into the game.
Author:  Deb [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Agreed, Even in WWII, the Germans, Yanks and to some degree the British Airborne forces invested in air transportable AA units.

In modern forces, however where we have the helicopter taking us everywhere, and even there are some STOLS/VTOLS allowing HALO drops for special forces. In these days AA is more rocket based, with Stingers, Strellas, Ilgas. All are really just man portable Air defense systems.

The core forces of the army has the big stuff. A plethora of vehicle borne or towed weapons mounted missiles and heavy autocannon. with guiding radar. It still does not mean the humble paratrooper or air cav does not need to be supplied with something lighter to swat at those pesky fast movers.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Yes even today airborne and air assault units have man-packed AAA, so yes, e.g. Stingers, Strellas, etc. I was with the 101 Air Assault Div, '80-'83. At one point our Bn had an organic Stinger Plt., with a Combat Support Co. But eventually we lose CSC in reorganization.

And in either case the Div ADA Bn deployed in areas to cover LZ/PZs, etc.

And later when I was an M113 Mech Inf Co. Cdr somes we'd get a Stinger Tm , 2-3 troops with Stingers, etc. attached to us. I kept it with my Co HQ Sec.

Also some rules give an AA shot +5 to some Hvy Wpns units, etc. I went thru the different rules/lists and added this to some of my units. This can represent attached Man-packed ADA and/or all Squads have organic Lgt/MMGs/SAWs and Assault Rifles. As an Inf Plt Ldr we trained for that.

"If it flies it dies!"

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Author:  jimmyzimms [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
None of the above. Elysian Sabre Platform. Adds self planetfalls / teleport per the list mechanics
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Good to know ! Thank You ! ;D
Author:  lord-bruno [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Deb wrote:
I have the Preliminary summary for these options, and why they were chosen for the poll (constraints on what can and can not be done) for this poll in the ELysian Drop Troop Regiment Army list 4.x thread Page 3.

Comments made by various people will be there if you want to read them. If you want to just choose from the options without any influence then just vote.

Although this vote will help me decide which option to put forward as I really think this list needs a ground based AA formation, the final decision rests on the Imperial Guards AM, and the ERC.


Option 2 is the Sabre weapons platform LV, moves 10cm, no save, range 30cm AA, towed by a standard chimera. You get 4 of each for 175 points.

Option 3 is just the Sabre Weapons Platform. 6 Sabres for 125 points. They move 10cm, LV with no save, and a weapon range of 30cm. They will be air droppable, and can fit 2 onto a Valkyrie.

Option 4 is the Blitzen AA weapons mount, LV, no save, move of 0cm, range 60 cm, towed by Brunehilde gun tractor, LV, moves 15cm, no save and mounts a heavy stubber. 4 of each for 150 points.

Option 5 is the Taurus Venator Elysian AA variant. In all respects the same as a venator, however the weapon is replaced by a range 30 AA weapon. One per Taurus formation at the normal price.

Option 6 is No ground based AA formations at all. Just rely upon the current Lightning Squadron (4 Lightning Fighters) and the Lightning Strike Squadron (2 Lightning Strike Fighters).


Watch out, the Sabres are Infantry (mounted) in ALL IG lists, and it should stay that way.

The Blitzen is quite heavy and cumbersome for an Air Drop army... the Sabre seems like a better option, but background-wise, this kind of armies rely on air support for AA, so...
Author:  Deb [ Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
lord-bruno wrote:
Deb wrote:
I have the Preliminary summary for these options, and why they were chosen for the poll (constraints on what can and can not be done) for this poll in the ELysian Drop Troop Regiment Army list 4.x thread Page 3.

Comments made by various people will be there if you want to read them. If you want to just choose from the options without any influence then just vote.

Although this vote will help me decide which option to put forward as I really think this list needs a ground based AA formation, the final decision rests on the Imperial Guards AM, and the ERC.


Option 2 is the Sabre weapons platform LV, moves 10cm, no save, range 30cm AA, towed by a standard chimera. You get 4 of each for 175 points.

Option 3 is just the Sabre Weapons Platform. 6 Sabres for 125 points. They move 10cm, LV with no save, and a weapon range of 30cm. They will be air droppable, and can fit 2 onto a Valkyrie.

Option 4 is the Blitzen AA weapons mount, LV, no save, move of 0cm, range 60 cm, towed by Brunehilde gun tractor, LV, moves 15cm, no save and mounts a heavy stubber. 4 of each for 150 points.

Option 5 is the Taurus Venator Elysian AA variant. In all respects the same as a venator, however the weapon is replaced by a range 30 AA weapon. One per Taurus formation at the normal price.

Option 6 is No ground based AA formations at all. Just rely upon the current Lightning Squadron (4 Lightning Fighters) and the Lightning Strike Squadron (2 Lightning Strike Fighters).


Watch out, the Sabres are Infantry (mounted) in ALL IG lists, and it should stay that way.

The Blitzen is quite heavy and cumbersome for an Air Drop army... the Sabre seems like a better option, but background-wise, this kind of armies rely on air support for AA, so...


Sorry, missed that they were infantry with a 10cm move.

I am going to have to fix that up.


Just fixed it up on the 4.1.4 version that I still have to upload yet.
Author:  Norto [ Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Is a tarantula platform the same as a saber platform?
Author:  Deb [ Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
The tarantula (from memory 40K 5th ed) is a weapons platform that can have its anti-grv activated to move it around. It has a twin linked lascannon on it. Sometimes it is an automated system with a computer controlled target and tracking system.

The Sabre is from Forge World, it is slightly larger weapons platform than the tarantula, and has a quad gun mount.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sabre_Gun_Platform

The Tarantula can have a TL Heavy Grenade Launcher, TL Heavy Bolter, or a TL Lascannon. It is about half to 2/3rds the size of the Sabre.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/Tara ... Lascannons

The Rapier is a tracked mounted weapon that can have a 4 barrelled multi-laser, or Quad Heavy Bolters.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/Spac ... -Destroyer
Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
the Sabres are Infantry (mounted) in ALL IG lists, and it should stay that way.

The Blitzen is quite heavy and cumbersome for an Air Drop army... the Sabre seems like a better option, but background-wise, this kind of armies rely on air support for AA, so... Agreed !


I found this this in one of the rules sets and plan on using it :
Name Type Speed Armor CC FF Wpns Rng Firepower Notes

Tarantula-H LV/INF 10 cm/15cm 6+/none 6+ 5+ Msls 30cm AA4+(AP5+/AT6+) [Choose type before game]

E.g. In SM1 a Drop Pod could carry a Mortar, Tarantula, Rapier or Thud Gun. But takes up 2 spaces … just throwing that out there … ;D
Author:  Deb [ Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Legion 4 wrote:
the Sabres are Infantry (mounted) in ALL IG lists, and it should stay that way.

The Blitzen is quite heavy and cumbersome for an Air Drop army... the Sabre seems like a better option, but background-wise, this kind of armies rely on air support for AA, so... Agreed !


I found this this in one of the rules sets and plan on using it :
Name Type Speed Armor CC FF Wpns Rng Firepower Notes

Tarantula-H LV/INF 10 cm/15cm 6+/none 6+ 5+ Msls 30cm AA4+(AP5+/AT6+) [Choose type before game]

E.g. In SM1 a Drop Pod could carry a Mortar, Tarantula, Rapier or Thud Gun. But takes up 2 spaces … just throwing that out there … ;D


Yeah well I am having enough headaches with a ground based AA unit that this list desparately needs. I can imagine trying to get weapons like tarantulas into the list, when they are more thematic to armies that use a lot of static defence, or need something to cover for the troops (or lack of) Mechanicus, Spacemarines generic, Adeptus Abites, Imperial Fist fortifications army and so on.

I have fixed the list sabre is an infantry unit mounted in 1.4.4 when I up load it. Probably this weekend. I want the poll to go on for a bit, then I will work out a semi-final list. One that can be put forward for development.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Yes I do believe the Saber AAA Platform is really is the way to go. I was just making suggestions. Like all suggestions may or may not be "useful" ... ;)
Author:  GlynG [ Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
My vote is for no ground AA and them relying on fighters.

The Epic-UK equivalent Air Cavalry list has a special rule allowing the player to put one aircraft formation on CAP before the start of the game. If they do this they may only have a single garrisoned ground formation on overwatch at the start rather than the usual two. This then gives the player some air protection at the start of the game, which partly helps their lack of ground AA. I think the same rule should be adopted here.
Author:  Deb [ Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Poll - Which ground based AA unit do use in Elysian List
Thought of that, but Norto recommended I remove it, if I want any ground based AA.

I think the list really needs some ground based AA.

Lists that do not have ground based AA, like the old Dark Eldar list tended to loose all its Aircraft very quickly. Having faced off against, and used Feral Orks with at least 9 x range 45cm, AA5+ MW in a feral army. Aircraft get shot down very easily. It is not the only list out there that can make any air cover or a list with lots of Thunderhawks, or their equivelant scared to fly in.

Tau have their barracuda fighters, a Skyray squadron with 3 x 2 range 60cm AA5+ shots. They can also add a skyray, another 2 range 60cm AA5+ shots to a Tau Fire Cadre team. Space Marines (generic) can add hunters to 6 of their formations which gives then a nice cheap range 60cm AA4+, backed up by Thunderbolt Squadrons, and they can still make drop assaults.

There are plenty of lists that can just cover the board in a mesh of AA cover, though most can cover about 1/2 to 2/3 of the table. making this lists use of Lightnings, a risky option. Atleast the old Dark Eldar had fighters with a 4+ save (not that helped against MW AA). and jinking does not help if the AA ignores your armour and cover save anyway.

Plus light ground based AA is very thematic to lists like this.

I will just not take the option where you place one fighter squadron on CAP instead of placing one garrison on Overwatch.
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