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Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development

 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:36 am 
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I was asked to start a new test list for the Elysian Drop troop Army, as many have complained of it having to many units that can teleport. The list has not been developed or follwed up for a number of years.

I looked at the various drop lists about Elysian, Harkoni Warhawks, Mirali Skyraiders, and Mobile Forces of the Catachan Army. I fistly looked at available Proxies for the models that would be needed for this army, and how many models are in the standard packs being sold (Vanguard were set as the benchmark). I was looking to remove the over use of Teleport, without hamstringing them. I also wanted to give their somewhat very fragile sentinals a bit more durability, and weapons flexability.

I replaced for the most part, Teleport with Self Planetfall, but with a few restrictions, so it would not be abused. I added in 2 new formatons the Grey Ghosts, who have a similar to SAS/Force Recon/Snipers. I thought this unit type would give the army some flavour.

The second type of formation is the Rocket Sentinels. They are just as weak and fragile as their other sentinel kin, however this version provides a mobile, if rather short ranged form of artillery support for the Elysian drop troops. They are limited, to stop them being abused, but a smart commander can get some good use out of them.

I have included some weapons Emplacements and Bunkers to represent the armies forward command base. Again I have limited their use, so they can not be abused. I have added in an allied line breaker formation borrowed from another list to give some followup armour and vehicular troop transports, but they eat up the points.

Overall the army still has the same basic tactics. Formations drop in, while Valkyries/Vendettas/Vultures, Sentinels and Taurus advance across the board to reinforce their forward elements. Everything is practically poorly armoured, short ranged, and have to rely on a hard fast strike to achieve victory, and hope their normally superior/stronger, and more powerful enemies do not have a chance to regroup.

The list is below. Enjoy. Provide feedback.

Version 4.1.1 I have renamed quite a few Formations and units, and modified the Mortar Company a little. I also added in the Scout Sentinels that I had forgotten to add in previously.

Version 4.1.2: GlynG provided feedback about things he did not like in the list. I also did not like the expensive cost of the Sentinels when compared to them in other lists. I have made changes through out to comply with what people said needed changing.

Version 4.1.3: Comments and recommendations from a whole group of people (moredakke, Norto, GlynG, RugII, jimmyzimms and fruitbat). I have corrected changes I did not completely correct previously - sentinels and bunkers. I removed Blitzen AA. Now replaced by a small half track towed 20mm AA guns that are valkyrie transportable (thanks moredakka). I fixed up the confusion over the BM for mortars (thanks Norto for bringing that up), and made Cyclops expendable one shot LV removed from play once they make their attacks (thanks jimmyzimms).

I removed the sniper rifle and sniper and scout rules from Hardened veterans as Grey Ghosts are the snipers now. I gave them plasma guns and machetes instead, kept the infiltrate, and increased their CC by +1. Their role is now the heavy close combat orientated veterans who have survived many campaigns and lead the other members of formation into the charge. They also have a plasma gun in each unit rather in every second unit.

ver 4.1.6 I updated the Lightnings to match thosed in the Harkoni Warhawks list.

Ver 4.2.0 After a practice game against Gargants and Titan war engines, I found so many defiecienies in the list that I realised the list needed a massive balancing out (boost). The changes are still not too much, but they give the list a bit more survivability, and some way of trying to deal with massed war engine lists like Gargants, AMTL, Knights, Eldar Titans, and others.

version 4.2.1 Similar to ver 4.2.0, however the points have been reset to balance the army. Since the points were expensive to account for the mass of teleport shinanigans, which has now been replaced with planetfall. Because of this I have dropped the average price of a unit in the core companies from 28 points each down to 22 points each. This is still more expensive than in most of the other Imperial Guard lists such as death korp of kreig, armageddon steel legion, baran seige masters, and others where they are about 20 points or less per unit. I updated the file to reintroduce a rule that Commissars can not join Grey Ghost Companies.

4.3.0
After feedback after a game about too many options for template artillery and BP 4 weaponry being too easy to get, spotters, rocket artillery, and mortar companies, I changed most of them to a ranged AP/AT stat. I have also dropped the Spotter character, and gave the Grey ghosts the ability to call in the artillery at 3BP, and made it so the entire formatoin - not each stand had the ability to call in a single artillery strike, this hasnthe benefit of allowing them to use the ability and not have them supressed.

I gave most of the infantry the infiltrate ability to actually get into combat on the first turn, that they arrive. The drop troops have their FF incresed to 4+ to account for their plasma weapoinry.

My opponent said that the army lacked close ranged MW to provide the punch to deal with enemy RA, fearless, Titans and such WE. A new support formation was developed a Platoon sized melta gun armed formation. Also the All the valkyries for the core formations, and the sky talons were removed from the list. Only the Storm troopers (upgrade option) and a newly formed Air Cav respone Platoon can get the Valkyries.

To make the Valkyries cheaper, as I did not want to have those formations being too expensive, I removed the one shot 1BP rocket artillery (which also fitted in with the removal of all 4BP or higher weaponry from the list).

Lastly I made 2 changes. I reduced the amount of upgrades a core formation can take down to 3, and I increased the amount of support formations you can take per core formation upto 3.

The reason for all these changes are from feedback about how the army is supposed to work thematically, and how they are suppoised fight - strike very hard, then seek cover or die way too quickly from the enemy counter strikes. A glass hammer. I needed to drop the amount of ranged artillery, and all the 4BP as they allow for 2 templates. I need to ensure that the troops after scattering get into close combat, and can hit hard enough, when they engage.

I need to give them some ability to deal with War Engines, Titans, and hardened troppers or walkers with a combination of RA, Invul saves and fearless. - so more short ranged and FF MW were recommended. It was also deemed that the army would not have any basic weapons per formation over 30cm unless they were designated as a support unit weapon, and then nothing over 45cm.

He did not like the fact I could take 4 upgrades and make the BTS way to large to break in 2 turns. I thought the need to get variety was important since the army has new support formations like the Air-cav platoon, the Grey Ghosts, the Special wepaons platoon and the support rocket sentinels. To get formations like taurus, sentinels, as well as some of the newer ones in the army, you need the extra support option.

Even though I have these changes, the cost of the formations has also increased a bit, so you still might only get 11 or 12 formations in the entire force - if you go with no upgrades at all. This will balance it all out.

Ver 4.3.2 Reverts back to including the Vtol Transport options for making some drop formations into air cav formations, and also drops the Rapid Respose Platoon mounted in Vtols as a support choice. I also increased the cost of the base formations because they have 4 extra troopers in each. With only 3 upgrade options I have change it to max 3 upgrades taken once each. To off set this due to the larger amount of support choices, I have increased it to 3 support choices per core formation.


Attachments:
Elysian Drop Troop Regiment Army List V4.3.2.pdf [295.13 KiB]
Downloaded 44 times
Elysian Drop Army Unit Statistic ver 4.3.2.pdf [262.05 KiB]
Downloaded 41 times

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:41 am, edited 40 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:07 pm 
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Please use the existing numbering convention not restarting. You're not the first version. Just look at the constant confusing occuring in Inquisition land due to multiple restarts and reboots on the various lists (especially sob). I know you're not big on social media but a week doesn't go by without confusion trying to figure out what version of a list someone is asking about in the epic groups. All due as sequential numbering was violated.

Great call in the use of self-planetfall. Teleport sounds good on paper but doesn't work well for this list as opposed to say Tallarn, where it's an option for deployment, not a requirement due to transport restrictions. Smart move!

You need to change the name of the stormtroopers to something like Elysian Stormtroopers as you have redefined the unit (named units are the same universally).

You have your sentinels way over customizable. Pick a loadout for each role not 2-3 each. You've got 3 types of sentinel with 6 different weapon options between them. That's a nightmare to proxy. It's fine if someone wants to build a WYSIWYG army specifically for this list but the vast majority of players will not and will use existing collections to stand in.

A general rule of thumb for list development is to try to keep special rules to no more than 3. If I'm counting correctly here you've added at least 5 USR/ASR. Maybe you can them tidy up a bit and perhaps combine a few? Give the guidelines document that Moscovian (or Dave or someone I don't remember at this moment) wrote a while back in the NetEA general section a peep. Good ideas in there about not turning into a kitchen sink and keeping the theme targeted.

Other than that, glad to see someone give attention! I'll be assisting in any way I can. Cheers!!

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:49 pm 
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So only 4 sentinels or taurus to a squadron (support squadrons) where I had it 4 to 6. Only the standard 8 stands in the core formations which are still the same, as I did not change them at all.

I hope the 4 - 6 Grey Ghosts work as they are a new formation, beacuse at 50 points a unit, they are expensive. Even though they are limited to 1 formation.

Apart from that and the teleport now being mostly self planetfall, the list has not been changed too much from the previous one. Some small rules changes like a bonus for the Sentinels with smoke launchers.

I noted that in the eveolution of the Biel-tan list that the guardians generally got larger and larger formations compared to say Iyanden and Sian-Hann. I did not do that. The core formations are still 8 strong. They still have the same short ranged weapons, and scary cost if you add valkyries to them.

In the first draft I offered to have an option to add 2 units to sentinels or taurus formatons to the make them a bit more durable and less prone to breaking. It cost more points to do this. This is a first draft.

So as I said download it first --- read through it thoroughly, make notes. See if there are things you think are too powerful still, or weakens the list too much. Make a recommendation that solves the problem. I will look to see what can be done. Perhaps make a poll on possible changes.

I was trying to test the waters a little, without rocking the boat too much. Make the list balanced, a little challenging, fun, and still keep to the basis of what was came before.

I have noted that the list has not been down loaded yet, just the unit statistics. Have you read it? Download it, read through it first then before making comments.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:02 pm 
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I made a quick change to the Taurus and Sentinels taking them back to only 4 units, an changing that to ver 1.1. I think it weakens the list a little, but that is to be tested, and worked out which is better.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:24 pm 
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The DL counter on files doesn't update in real time, just an FYI. Yes read it over coffee today, hence my notes.
Any responses to the points above? Especially feel strongly about you setting your numbering convention to 4.x as it's going to save confusion.

I'd like to take this out for a spin in the next week. Anything specific you feel should be stressed tested first?

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:54 am 
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DL counters? you mean download counters for the files right?

If so, then understood.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:19 am 
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I have reset the sentinels and the taurus to 4 alredy with the 1.1 version.

If you are referring to dropping the Company formations size down to 4, the previous version before had all company formations - regimental HQ, the Regimental artillery company, and the Drop Troop Company all set at 8. I have kept them to that number.

It seems really silly to send a drop company of only 4 really weak infantry stands right into a strongly held enemy area where most of them are going to be in cover already, and possibly on overwatch. If they lose 2 stands they are broken already. Even if I were to drop 5 of those companies (which would make separating them from each other a nightmare- colour recognition markers, etc), then they still would pretty much get shot apart.

If I were to do that, I would have to massively reduce the cost of the company formations to suit their new found vulnerability. I would then probably remove the valkyrie upgrade from the drop troop companies, and make a separate formation that comes with the Valkyries or vendettas. But I think all that would make the army a nightmare to work with and organise.

I can imagine the comments when your turnament army list is posted up. The Ork Speed Freeks army above yours has 14 formations, and your Elysian army has 28 formations. You would win by activation count alone in some cases. Yes, I know, most of the army will be dropping down in dribs and drabs, and quickly get shot up, broken and then wiped out. But everyone would complain, they always do.

Could you try out the Grey ghosts platoon and and the rocket sentinel squadron as they are the formations I have added in. I want to see how well they work at delaying the enemy advance (grey ghots), and supporting the drop troops (rocket sentinels).

Later try the bunkers out and see if they are too powerful, and maybe I should just offer it as an upgrade to just the Regimental HQ and the Artillery company, which I an thinking of renaming to Elysian drop Mortar company, and having 4 mortars, 1 Lieutenant and a single Elysian drop trooper unit. as their role is primarily to support the regimental HQ, and give a limited barrage support for the forward base.

Early days.

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:35 am 
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Due to a confusion on versions, the current version, and naming conventions from comments on facebook, I have renamed all the files. Where it was names 1.0, it is now 4.0. I hope this solves your problems. I believe this is the 4th attempt to get this army to work.

old files deleted from site. renamed and reloaded up with just a new name.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:03 am 
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I have been repurposing miniatures from my Vraaksians renegades army, and my Ministorum Army to be used for my Elysian Drop Troop Army.

I have:
1 x Elysian Regimental Command Platoon with 3 bunkers 350 pts
1 x Elysian Regimental Mortar Platoon with 3 bunkers 275 pts
3 x Elysian Drop Companies 3 x 225 pts
1 x Fire Spt unit upgrade +25 pts
2 x groups of 4 x Valkyrie/Vendetta transports +150 pts
1 group of 2 Valkyrie Sky Talon Transports +75 pts
2 Marauder Bombers 2 x 150 pts
2 groups of 2 Lightning Strike Fighters 2 x 150 pts
1 Line Breaker Column 300 pts
1 Luna Class Cruiser 150 pts
1 x Ghost Platoon – 4 units 200 pts
1 Regimental AA Platoon with 3 emplacements 150 pts
3 Elysian Sentinel Drop Squadrons 3 x 150 pts
1 Elysian Rocket Sentinel Squadron 1 x 175 pts

In total I could field a force worth 3575 points. That is 17 formations plus an upgrade for squad, and 3 transports options for them. Most other armies would probably field 12 formations for the same point level.

I will endeavour to get the correct minis from Vanguard minis and other sources, especially the grey ghosts as I want some 6mm troops in Gillie Camoflauge suits.

see below for my temporary fill in army:

Image

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Last edited by Deb on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:06 am 
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I know there are a lot of bunkers there, but trying to decide which to use. Probably the smaller ones, and I have 4 aircraft that I am not using as I do not run Dark Angels and was thinking of using them for fill ins for other stuff like Sky Talons.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:33 pm 
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Deb wrote:
If you are referring to dropping the Company formations size down to 4, the previous version before had all company formations - regimental HQ, the Regimental artillery company, and the Drop Troop Company all set at 8. I have kept them to that number.

It seems really silly to send a drop company of only 4 really weak infantry stands right into a strongly held enemy area where most of them are going to be in cover already, and possibly on overwatch. If they lose 2 stands they are broken already. Even if I were to drop 5 of those companies (which would make separating them from each other a nightmare- colour recognition markers, etc), then they still would pretty much get shot apart.


No. Not even sure how you got that from anything I wrote.

I'm saying that your list is overly bloated in Sentinel options. You have 3 types of sentinel units available. Those 3 types of sentinels have 6 different types of weapon loadouts available. That's bloat and awkward AF, especially for people that are not going collect a dedicated WYSIWYG army just for this list (which will be the majority of players). If I am playing against this list and trying figure out which Sentinel has the Multimelta vs the one with the Autocannon is not fun. I am suggesting that you should tone down the number of Weapon A OR weapon B OR... on the Sentinel unit stats to being just one (or at least LESS).

None of that is about the size of any formations in the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:58 pm 
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I thought you were referring to all formations in the army when you mentioned the numbering convention sticking to a numbering convetion of 4. The reason was that I had replied to your initial response, and said that I had dropped the sentinels and taurus down to 4 units.

Then you reply came and I thought you were still asking me to drop formations down to 4. I could not get my head around what you were meaning until later when I changed the name of the list to 4.0/4.1.

Confusion reigns.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:33 am 
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Just thought I'd drop (see what I did there) this in so you guys have some idea what figures will be available.

The walkers and demolition drones are already released, the infantry should be out this coming week and the buggies will hopefully be available next month. We had some casting issues with those which required some minor rework and remastering so they are running behind.

So we have specialists command, missile and mortar teams and demolition drones, and a regular troopers set both of which will include a landing troopers and HALO figures sprue.

Any other suggestion/ideas.

I have considered doing some light air transportable support weapons like a light anti-air cannon for example (think WWII german 20mm flak here).


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:52 am 
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I can not wait until the Infantry and the restock of scout vehicles comes out.

How will they be packaged? What I meanby that is as an example : Novan Regular Airborne infantry pack of 40 models includiing an officer, sergeant, 8 plasma guns, 25 infantry, 5 Halo infantry. I am trying to determine what packs I need to build the army I want to collect.

In reply to whay you asked about suggestions/other ideas. I would love to see a pack of 20 scout snipers in Ghillie suits. These would be used in the Novan Regulars Airborne army for Grey Ghosts, but could also be used in any Novan type Army. Perhaps 4 Sniper rifles, 12 troopers in various poses including spotters, 4 odels in leading ommand poses pointing/directing like a Corporals/Seargent.

I can see people purchasing them for other gaming systems (other than Epic). WWII, Post WWII modern games would use them for their Elite Sniper teams. I have checked the internet and could not find any 6mm/ 1:285 scale models in Ghillie suits anywhere. People have to green stuff them to make the models.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:54 pm 
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Infantry set will be the usual 40 figures, 4 of each of the two sprue types for four squads in total plus one sprue of the landing figures.

Specialists will be 2 command sprues, 6 support weapons sprues, 3 demolition drones and a again a sprue of landing guys.

Sniper teams ok so note.

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