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DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.3

 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:21 am 
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^ this ^

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:43 am 
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JimXII wrote:
Hey Matt,
Is that a particular list or units that you would like the current round of playtesting to focus on?

Cheers
Jim


The following need focus:
[] The Gorgon + Infantry units
[] Death Rider Company
[] Death Strike (silo or launcher form)

There are probably no surprises in that list. It is interesting to note that after playing a few games with the revised list, local player Nick has decided to take the launcher to the tournament in Perth next weekend instead of the Silo. He is an adept player and list builder, so that could be an indication that it's less a no-brainer.

The following are units that are less vital but I would like to see playtested:
[] Engineers with Hades Breaching Drill
[] Light Support Battery (quad / heavy mortars)

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:00 am 
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Any list with 3 Infantry formations in Gorgons along with Shadowswords, Warhounds, Deathstrikes and Scouts would be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:55 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
The following are units that are less vital but I would like to see playtested:
[] Engineers with Hades Breaching Drill
[] Light Support Battery (quad / heavy mortars)

Thanks.


And when will you add an explanation how the Hades Drill works? I have no clue how it works... :)

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:33 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
[] The standard Death Strike Missile Launcher is in the list, with the option to change it to the new weaker Silo for +25pts.
They are functionally identical, except the silo gets 4+ (not reinforced) instead of 5+ armour in exchange for a 25pt higher price tag and becoming immobile. This is just 16% more likely to stop a hit than a Steel legion DS, so imagine it as a dug in launcher rather than the super heavy silo of the past. It is nothing like as survivable as the old silo; in the most recent playtest it was killed in an assault by 6 Tau stealth suits before it even got to fire fight :D.


Hi Matt,
if I understand the list correct you can choose to get a Formation of Death Strike Missile Launcher or a Deathstrike Silo.
If you choose the Death Strike Missile Launcher you get "one Death Korps Deathstrike Missile Launcher" with:
2x Deathstrike Missiles Unlimited MW2+, TK(D6), One-Shot, Indirect
2x Heavy Bolters 30cm AP5+
and an armour of 5+
One formation of one unit, right?

In the Steel Legion list you get one Deathstrike Battery (Two Deathstrikes) with
Deathstrike Missile Unlimited MW2+, Ind, SS, TK(D6)
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+
and an armour of 6+
One Formation of two units, right?

Would it not be easier for all if the mobile Death Korps Deathstrike Missile Launcher would be simply the same Deathstrike Battery (Two Deathstrikes) you get in the Steel legion list. Even the model makes more sense with one rocket each, does it not?

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:10 am 
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Ole wrote:
Would it not be easier for all if the mobile Death Korps Deathstrike Missile Launcher would be simply the same Deathstrike Battery (Two Deathstrikes) you get in the Steel legion list. Even the model makes more sense with one rocket each, does it not?
Cheers
Ole


It could be, but the goal with it is to make the Krieg version balanced against the SL version rather than identical to it.

Quote:
And when will you add an explanation how the Hades Drill works? I have no clue how it works... :)


I will add a copy of the text from the old Epic:Siege expansion to the next update of the PDF.

In the meantime:

Code:
[b]DEATH KORPS HADES BREACHING DRILL[/b] (Phaeton Pattern)
Speed Immobile Armour - FF - CC -

Notes: Tunneler, Transport (May transport 8 Engineers)
Note that the Hades Breaching Drill is not a unit and so may not be shot at nor have hits applied to it. It is in all respects simply a marker, to be used in a similar manner to Space Marine Drop Pods. No Blast Marker is generated for its parent formation leaving the Hades Breach Drill behind during the game.

[b]Tunnellers[/b]
Tunnellers are set up on their own table edge before the battle starts, at the same time that spacecraft are deployed. Any units transported in the tunneller are kept off table until it appears. Write down the location where the tunneller will surface at the same time and in the same manner that you record the co-ordinates of a drop zone (see 4.3.1).
You must also secretly record when the tunneller will surface. If it is going to appear in your half of the table it may arrive from the second turn onwards. If it is going to appear in the opposing half of the table, it may arrive from turn three onwards. Set up the tunneller at the start of the stated turn. It and any units being transported may take an action on the turn they appear.


As you can see, it's an interesting version of Teleportation with the restrictions of a Planetfall applied to it.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:56 am 
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Just chasing some advice before i trudge ahead,

Something like this would be what we'd be looking to get some reports on?

Reg HQ
19 DKok inf plus sup com & 2 gorgons (200) total = [600]

Inf company
19 dkok inf plus commander & 2 gorgons (200) total = [500]

Inf company
19 dkok inf plus commander & 2 gorgons (200) total = [500]

Death Rider Scout Platoon [150]

Death Rider Scout Platoon [150]

Death Rider Scout Platoon [150]

Deathstrike Missile Launcher [200]

Super-Heavy Tank Platoon, shadowsword[200]

Heavy Support Battery, Hydras [125]

Warhound titan [275]

Thunderbolts [150]


Feel free to let me know whatever you might feel needs to be swapped out / changed.

Cheers,

Sam

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:04 am 
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11 activations...
3 of the massive Gorgon/infantry formations...

Brutal!

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:04 am 
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Quote:
Feel free to let me know whatever you might feel needs to be swapped out / changed.


From the point of view of playtesting, it's pretty much ideal.

It's a guard army with basically 3 shooting units, one of which is a one-shot. Turn 1 you can fire the DS, WH and SS, and turn 2 you're left with a SS and a WH that probably used its plasma. That's perfect for a test to see if pushing the new more expensive Gorgons to the max at the cost of reasonable firepower can be effective, so I'd definitely be interested in the results you can get.

Thanks :D


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:17 am 
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I think the problem is how people use the gorgons and the infantry. So whilst normal people will charge the infantry into the fray to maximise CC attacks others will put the gorgons up front so that they can exploit the 4++ armour to soak up the first 6 hits and then any macros.

Now whilst this is all above board, it creates a exceptionally effective combat unit. I cant think of another formation the game that can pull as much reinforced armour saves and cc attacks into an assault without using a commanders capabilities.

Therefore based on its stats alone It is probably appropriately priced - but based off its actual utility in combat I think it's points need to be increased. Alternatively you could revert to the old 6++ save as per the original list.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:04 am 
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The strength of his list is it hits like a ton of bricks and absorbs blast markers really well. The weaknesses are an extremely small threat range; to get even 1 gorgon to the front reduces the threat range of this unit to 35cm, and I don't think he's got the firepower to mitigate for that against an opponent who won't let krieg play that game.
I think it's a good list, focussed on a single goal and method of play and that it has a good chance of winning, but you can really see the impact of the higher cost of the units.

On the other hand, I'd still like to see poeple taking 2 instead of 3 of those mega formations. I had hoped that the higher costs and more exciting Deathrider alternatives would be sufficient to start tipping that balance, but if there's one thing Fudd's list shows it's that from a players point of view, 2 Scout DR formations > 1 large DR Formation.

So there's probably more to be done.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:06 am 
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New battle report!

DKOK Version 1.3 fight Vior'la Tau in a dramatic game.

Image

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29925


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:28 am 
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Any thoughts on somehow making the infantry platoon in gorgons a 0-1 choice.

so your core choices would look something like this...

0-1: Reg HQ @ 400pts (eligible for gorgons / trenchworks)
0-1: Gorgon infantry company @ 500pts (come pre mounted in gorgons)
Infantry company @ 300pts (eligible for trenchworks)
Death rider company @ 300pts


This obviously means yes there's still going to be 2 death stars in *most* armies, but that extra 500pts i could personally see being dropped on a big death rider company and perhaps dropping something else in the list to get come macharius in.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:35 am 
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JimXII wrote:
I think the problem is how people use the gorgons and the infantry. So whilst normal people will charge the infantry into the fray to maximise CC attacks others will put the gorgons up front so that they can exploit the 4++ armour to soak up the first 6 hits and then any macros.

Now whilst this is all above board, it creates a exceptionally effective combat unit. I cant think of another formation the game that can pull as much reinforced armour saves and cc attacks into an assault without using a commanders capabilities.

Therefore based on its stats alone It is probably appropriately priced - but based off its actual utility in combat I think it's points need to be increased. Alternatively you could revert to the old 6++ save as per the original list.

Cheers
Jim


I don't have a massive issue of guard infantry using their AFVs/IFVs as shields in the assault, it sort of makes sense but the 4++, 3DC is probably overstating their survivability. The macharius with which it shares a common hull is 2DC. Shadowswords & Baneblade class SHTs are more survivable due to not being "open topped" in 40k.

I think 6++ is too much of a nerf but a reduction to 2DC to account for the reduced durability, or keep it at 3DC and drop to 5++ would "feel" better to me. Preference would be to make them 2DC, as that stops them being complete bullet magnets when placed at the front of an assault but they're individually still well protected against non MW attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:20 pm 
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ortron wrote:
I don't have a massive issue of guard infantry using their AFVs/IFVs as shields in the assault, it sort of makes sense but the 4++, 3DC is probably overstating their survivability. The macharius with which it shares a common hull is 2DC. Shadowswords & Baneblade class SHTs are more survivable due to not being "open topped" in 40k.

I think 6++ is too much of a nerf but a reduction to 2DC to account for the reduced durability, or keep it at 3DC and drop to 5++ would "feel" better to me. Preference would be to make them 2DC, as that stops them being complete bullet magnets when placed at the front of an assault but they're individually still well protected against non MW attacks.


+1

With my preference also being the 2DC approach. That's two less hits in each assault that benefit from a 4++ save.


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