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DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.3

 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:26 pm 
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I´ll stick up for @Matt's revisions so far which I think is going very much in the right direction. Remember that this is NetEA and not a Epic UK list. The EUK DKOK list might be balanced in a way but also very boring. You will almost never see a EUK list without at least 6 Gorgons, probably 7. This revision actually nerfs the Gorgon+inf combo more than the UK version (@Rug) but leaves in other choices for variation and in the best case scenario some choices that will even be competitive choices vs. the all Gorgon path!

Death Riders

Here I still think that Detah rider co:s should be made the same stat-wise as all other rough riders and cost 300 pts. Then they might possibly be able to compete with the Gorgon companies and they lose the extremely useful scout rule compared to regular RR anyway. The 0-1 should go.

Artillery and AA

Onyx has mane good points regarding what the over powered bits of the list might be and his list example is still quite scary. Regarding Artillery and AA I think Centaurs should be standard and Trojans + 25 pts. The ablative armour without cost makes them better than other guard art/AA (even if the loss of the manticore missile option hurts)

Tanks

The Macharius is definitely still over costed and 6 Russ platoons are not taken often at all either, but options is nice to have for fluff if nothing else.

Infantry

Also another very small consideration is that the defensive DKOK list in fortifications or the Infantry horde list is even worse now with CC 6+. But since the Gorgons is the problem and it seems I´m the only one interested in painting up 20-40 inf more I guess this is not an important consideration. The solution would be to give non-transported inf heavy stubbers for every other stand. But that would need a lot of playtesting for a niche this army is not really used for today…

Death strike silo

To be clear the Silo is 2DC now and has worse FF. Dropping the option for attatching a commissar would make it even more vulnerable and could be considered. I think @Kyrt had an interesting suggestion if play testing shows further nerfing is necessary: “Another idea could be to make it a unit that replaces the blitz objective (and of course can't capture or contest itself)”

Titans

The single war hounds could go I guess, but definitely not the other Titan options because Titans are cool and not over powered in general. I´m kind of with @Draccan though, it removes options and a risk is that it will just result in more Gorgon inf and art or air. Still it would fit the list to become even slower.

Sorry for looong post!


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:31 pm 
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The common complaint in this entire thread seems to be about the Gorgon spam...so instead of tinkering with infantry, the silo, the rough riders, etc - how about we just move the 0-1 restriction / 1,500 points form rough rider companies to gorgons? i.e. - only 1 formation per 1,500 points can take gorgon transports? Or some other restriction?

Am I over simplifying things? If say only..1? formation per 3,000 points could be in Gorgons I think we'd see a lot more variations of the list and none of the dreaded Gorgon spams people hate to play against so much. But I know we all ( me included) own 4-6 Gorgons...

Earlier I had also suggested maybe 0-1 Gorgon transported infantry per infantry company garrisoned in trenches...I think that would be a good fluff-focused restriction as well.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:52 am 
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esadous wrote:
...All that said I've had opponents totally frustrated by the Silo's, feeling like they couldn't do anything to counter it...but I've also had my silo's taken out top of turn 1 by thunderhawks and or landa's.


Just consider that this is still a pretty poor proposition for your opponent. They've taken out your 250-point missile silo, sure... but they've basically expended ~450 points of their forces to do so, all of which are probably lost (either killed in the critical explosion of the silo, or mopped up by nearby forces). That's not to mention the risk of flying an expensive but fragile plane through enemy flak, and then taking an overwatch missile to the face before getting to assault.

Even when your missile silo dies at the top of turn 1, it's almost certainly already paid for itself.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:20 am 
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kadeton wrote:
Just consider that this is still a pretty poor proposition for your opponent. They've taken out your 250-point missile silo, sure... but they've basically expended ~450 points of their forces to do so, all of which are probably lost (either killed in the critical explosion of the silo, or mopped up by nearby forces). That's not to mention the risk of flying an expensive but fragile plane through enemy flak, and then taking an overwatch missile to the face before getting to assault.

Even when your missile silo dies at the top of turn 1, it's almost certainly already paid for itself.


That's all true vs some matchups, but IMHO the Guard armies have built in weaknesses and lower Strategy ratings than most armies in order to allow opponents to have the opportunity to deal with key targets before they fire, or decide not to.

Anyway the current revision Deathstrike silo has been weakened to the point where any other artillery or flying formation has a good chance against it, and disrupt artillery can just break it --some (eg Ordinatus) break it the moment they declare it as a target, while others (eg Voidspinners or other guard armies) just need to roll a 4+.

Units with 2 hit points are considerably weaker than units with 3 in Epic, and the Revision's DC2 5+ is VERY different from the approved version's DC3 4+.

esadous wrote:
The common complaint in this entire thread seems to be about the Gorgon spam...so instead of tinkering with infantry, the silo, the rough riders, etc - how about we just move the 0-1 restriction / 1,500 points form rough rider companies to gorgons? i.e. - only 1 formation per 1,500 points can take gorgon transports? Or some other restriction?


I have been considering something very similar:
Code:
0-1 Regimental HQ or Infantry Company per 1,500pts may be upgraded with Gorgon Siege Transporters.


Using imposed 0-1 restrictions is not my favourite approach by any means, but it is an option in order to force a list change away from 3 gorgon formations at 3,000pts.
The next most likely change would be making the Gorgons cost a full 200pts (vs 125 in the approved version, and 175 in the revision) or 250pts with mortars (vs 125 in the approved version, and 225 in the revision).

I'd be interested in feedback on these suggestions before the next revision.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:50 am 
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There needs to be more playtesting before further changes to the Gorgons I think, capping at 0-1 would make DKOK an entierley different army wich would not be assault oriented. Capping at 2 at 3000pts would be workable but invalidate a lot of peoples armies. It would be better to balance the list in general if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:53 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
That's all true vs some matchups, but IMHO the Guard armies have built in weaknesses and lower Strategy ratings than most armies in order to allow opponents to have the opportunity to deal with key targets before they fire, or decide not to.

Yep, I was talking about the examples given - Thunderhawks and Landas - units which are used specifically to overcome their respective armies' lack of the kind of long-range artillery fire that you suggest to counter the silo. I'm not saying it's a problem for everyone, just putting the "Sometimes I lose my silo on turn 1!" contention into perspective.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Units with 2 hit points are considerably weaker than units with 3 in Epic, and the Revision's DC2 5+ is VERY different from the approved version's DC3 4+.

I dig it, though I'm still not sure why a mobile siegebreaking-assault force would spend a few years mining out a massive underground silo for missiles they could carry on the back of a tank. I'd still rather that they couldn't add a Commissar, personally, but at least they'll be a bit more manageable now.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:23 pm 
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On the gorgons, firstly they clearly aren't the only problem with the list so I don't think that one is going to cut it :) I'd rather see them balanced without the need to restrict - invalidating everyone's armies. They've got a decent price increase and could go up further, so I see no need to resort to that yet. The problem with gorgons is simply that they completely transform the infantry company, so the points have to reflect that. TBH gorgons would probably be worth 200 points even if they didn't come with any infantry, so it's not hard to see them costing more given the synergy present. However what would probably be useful is to bear in mind how much each of the three deployment options ought to cost, rather than thinking of the gorgons in isolation:
Naked: 300 (too much?)
With bunkers/trenches: 400
With gorgons: 500 (not enough?)

kadeton wrote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Units with 2 hit points are considerably weaker than units with 3 in Epic, and the Revision's DC2 5+ is VERY different from the approved version's DC3 4+.

I dig it, though I'm still not sure why a mobile siegebreaking-assault force would spend a few years mining out a massive underground silo for missiles they could carry on the back of a tank. I'd still rather that they couldn't add a Commissar, personally, but at least they'll be a bit more manageable now.


Personally I think the silo is roughly fine now with those new stats, but this did get me thinking. Would you really see both gorgons AND a silo in the same battle? You'd only see the silo where there are fortifications, I would say... you could actually put that in the list. I think you might see some people wanting the regular deathstrikes back though ;)

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:49 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Personally I think the silo is roughly fine now with those new stats, but this did get me thinking. Would you really see both gorgons AND a silo in the same battle? You'd only see the silo where there are fortifications, I would say... you could actually put that in the list. I think you might see some people wanting the regular deathstrikes back though ;)

That could work - you can only take the silo if you have one infantry company with trenches? If you also made the trenches an either/or option for the Gorgons you might kill two birds with one stone, though that may not be necessary? There are definitely options there...


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:24 am 
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Has anyone considered placing Gorgons as separate formations? They could potentially be listed as War Engines and share in the Navy & Titan point restrictions much like Black Legion plays with it's war engines.

I'm sure the knee jerk reaction would be that this gives the army even more activations. If you think about it though, most people will simply stick their infantry inside the Gorgons anyways so in practice it will still act as a single formation and not two (at first). Furthermore, when the formation(s) perform their assault which they will inevitably do, they become two units. This has advantages and disadvantages. On the one hand you now have 2 formations instead of one. Offensively for the DKoK this is definitely an advantage. Defensively however the enemy can now assault just the infantry formation. Yes the Gorgons will provide supporting fire, but that is 6 less reinforced armor saves (assuming 2 Gorgons), 6 less "units" for outnumbering in assault, and 6 less "units" makes it far easier to break the formation as well. At it's core, DKoK relies on assaults=Gorgon+infantry. Infantry provide most of the damage/bodies while Gorgons provide the protection/mobility. Creating separate formations mitigates some of that protection/mobility.

I also believe in a Gorgon price increase as already planned and even an extra activation surcharge cost if taken as a separate formation (ex: 25 points). If placed under "WAR ENGINES" and it were to compete with Titans and Navy this would further force players to make harder decisions than they already do.

And if I'm not mistaken it prevents Grenadiers from setting up as a garrison WITH a Gorgon.

Just my two cents. Keep up the awesome work guys! :)


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:50 am 
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I'd really like to see as many battle reports as possible before we see yet another revision. people keep basing opinions on the old list (current approved list).

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:55 pm 
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partisan_nick wrote:
There needs to be more playtesting before further changes to the Gorgons I think, capping at 0-1 would make DKOK an entierley different army wich would not be assault oriented. Capping at 2 at 3000pts would be workable but invalidate a lot of peoples armies. It would be better to balance the list in general if possible.



Currently the core formations I'm running....

Mech HQ w/ 2 Gorgons
Infantry Co. w/ Firesupport Team in Trenches and bunkers (garrisoned on overwatch)
Death Rider Co.
Death Rider Co.

This is still a VERY assault focused army. I have the death riders work with each infantry company, assaulting formations where the infantry have set up to support. I think limiting Gorogons wouldn't hurt the assault focus of DKoK - it would just force a change in tactics. I think taking away CC 5+ would hurt waaayyy more!!


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:33 am 
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esadous wrote:
I think limiting Gorogons wouldn't hurt the assault focus of DKoK - it would just force a change in tactics. I think taking away CC 5+ would hurt waaayyy more!!


Following a recent playtest, I will be changing this stat. The Infantry will be regaining their CC5+, as the intention in the raft of changes proposed was intended to make the Infantry/Gorgon formation better balanced, not to reduce the viability of the infantry formations on foot. Having them drop to CC6+ while still carrying just 1 heavy stubber per 20 stands meant the wrong part of the formation was being punished (IMO).
Anyone brave enough to run these guys on foot deserves our support and respect :D

The gorgons will be going up to 200pts. The RHQ will be 600pts and the core infantry formation would now be 500 pts (which means the mortar upgraded version is a remarkable 125pts more than the Approved list). That would leave it within 25pts of the cost of 10 Leman Russ Exterminator tanks, which lacks the body-count but is a faster, far more versatile and better-armed assault formation.

The result of the changes above should be the Infantry/Gorgon formation power-per-point decreased while infantry on foot are no longer penalised.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:37 am 
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Borka wrote:
Seems like mostly good changes, but... ;)
I'd rather see the cavalry become better in CC than shooting (FF). From knowing the importance of FF in epic, then your suggestion probably makes them more competitive though.


They're going to become equivalent to Rough Riders.
I liked the idea of treating special weapons as an improved FF value, but with far more important changes in the works for this list it will be simpler to give them the already-approved standard RR statline and drop their armour value from 5+ to 6+.
The core Death Rider formation's price will be going up a bit.

Expect an updated list soon.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:22 am 
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Death Korps of Kreig Revision 1.2
Attachment:
KriegRevisionV12.pdf [18.42 KiB]
Downloaded 185 times


Death Korps of Kreig Reference Sheet 1.2
Attachment:
KriegReferenceV12.pdf [95.94 KiB]
Downloaded 141 times


[b]What's new:

[] Death Korps Infantry have regained CC5+
[] Gorgons have increased to 200pts
'Following a recent playtest, I will be changing this stat. The Infantry will be regaining their CC5+, as the intention in the raft of changes proposed was intended to make the Infantry/Gorgon formation better balanced, not to reduce the viability of the infantry formations on foot. Having them drop to CC6+ while still carrying just 1 heavy stubber per 20 stands meant the wrong part of the formation was being punished (IMO). Anyone brave enough to run these guys on foot deserves our support and respect '
[] Mortars down to 25pts
This is linked to the Gorgon increase. IMHO free was too cheap, but a 1 shot weapon costing a third of a howitzer formation was too high. A better cost might be Gorgon 190 Mortar 35 but I am trying to avoid inconvenient numbers.
[] Trenchworks gain 20cm of Razor Wire
A small boon to an uncompetitive choice at 100pts for a non-formation
[] Trenches and Razor Wire must be deployed in contiguous segments of at least 20cm in length.
Rather than potentially scattered all over the place.
[] The standard Death Strike Missile Launcher is in the list, with the option to change it to the new weaker Silo for +25pts.
They are functionally identical, except the silo gets 4+ (not reinforced) instead of 5+ armour in exchange for a 25pt higher price tag and becoming immobile. This is just 16% more likely to stop a hit than a Steel legion DS, so imagine it as a dug in launcher rather than the super heavy silo of the past. It is nothing like as survivable as the old silo; in the most recent playtest it was killed in an assault by 6 Tau stealth suits before it even got to fire fight :D.
[] Death Korps Death Riders get the standard Rough Rider profile (lower armour, EA)
[] Death Korps Death Riders go up in price by 50 points. Death Korps Rough Riders purchased as a Core formation lose Scout and gain Walker
They no longer get a price decrease for being a larger formation (it is now simply 6 for 150 or 12 for 300). Scout is better than Walker, but firstly core formations with scout can be problematic, and secondly Walker gives them a form of differentiation that really suits their 'cavalry charge' role. It was great fun in a test game, and a unit I'd love to see a lot more play. I hope people will give them a try.


I am well aware this doesn't cover everybody's wishlist for changes, but still consider this to be a fully playable list. In fact I hope to play some games against it in a campaign and tournament that are starting here soon.

Watch this space for battle reports --- and please feel free to take it out for a spin and add your own!


Last edited by Matt-Shadowlord on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:58 am 
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Someone issued those Rough Riders with horses that can walk? Are Imperial Standard wheeled horses not good enough? That quartermaster will be getting a visit from the Commissariat.

Seriously though, big fan of all these changes.


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