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DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.3

 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:19 am 
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Yes, i thought singelton warhounds would be the first to go actually.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:16 am 
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atension wrote:
While yes they don't have quite as much long range firepower as Steel legion in terms of indirect fire capable units this isn't really a weakness. No other list does really either. They do still have shadowswords, earthshaker platforms, the much debated deathstrike silo, Bombards, Medusa platforms, Macharius tanks, Leman russ and titans... It doesn't really look like they are lacking ranged firepower in the least. Look at Tyranids, Necrons, Codex marines, Most chaos lists (tzeentch and Iron Legion aside), Orks and even Eldar don't have that much.


You'd probably get a better idea of how they compare to most Guard variants by trying to create a few lists. Taking the one Onyx just posted as an example of a decent krieg list, with this new revision they are an army that spends its first 1,525 points to gain 6 heavy bolters and 3 stubbers worth of fire power.
That is uniquely low amongst guard, and since these are the obligatory core formations it forces the list away from long ranged stand offs and towards assault.

atension wrote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Compared to more recent guard lists like the Minverans, they're more complicated to play and easier to clip, and again lack the many of the best long range firepower units and mobile AA upgrades.

Just because they may be a little more complicated doesn't mean they are worse. They do lack ground AA mobility but thunderbolts are very cheap excellent interceptors. Do you mean they are easier to clip because they don't have the chimers 10cm counter charge only the fat Gorgons?


I agree, I didn't say worse, just more complicated. In fact as a rule the simpler an assault formation is to win with the more it should cost.
What I mean by easier to clip is that they have shorter counter charge range, and at all times have to weigh up whether the infantry should be inside or outside the gorgons. Inside they can be locked in or massacred by AT, Titan Killers or the newly toughened crits, while outside the huge footprint makes them easy to clip, terrible vs templates and barrage and slows the formation down. It's a dilemma that a formation like 10 Minervan Assault tanks doesn't have to deal with.
I am not describing them as weak, it's still a great assault formation, just more complicated to use.

Onyx wrote:
Just to show what's still possible with this list:
    Regimental HQ Company + Gorgons + Mortars =625
    Infantry Company + Gorgons =475
    Infantry Company + Gorgons =475
    Heavy Support Battery (2x Hydras 1x Heavy AA platform with free Trojans) =125
    Super-Heavy Tank Platoon (Shadowsword) =200
    Death Rider Scout Platoon =150
    Deathstrike Silo =250
    Two Thunderbolt Fighters =150
    One Warhound Titan =275
    One Warhound Titan =275

3000pts.


That's a good list made with the new revision.
Of the things in the list, the deathstrike is easier to break and easier to kill, the three large formations have increased in cost, lost their mortars, got a worse crit and had 20 infantry drop from CC5+ to CC6+, and the list itself has lost one formation (probably anti air) compared to what we would have faced in the past.

The list is empirically, demonstrably not as powerful as any krieg list we've played before. I hope to see some more playtests and there may well be some more tweaks required, but personally I would now be happy to play against Krieg with any of my other armies.
But at least it looks like everyone agrees it's moving in the right direction.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:25 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Yes, i thought singelton warhounds would be the first to go actually.


No way Mordoten, Gorgons! It was always going to be about the Gorgons 8)


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:43 am 
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atension wrote:
Well put Onyx.
What about dropping titan support from the list. In the couple novels I've read that feature Krieg they never field any type of titan. All be it I'm not that we'll versed in the Krieg fluff. I'm really eger to have a go at them now. Just finished my Gargant list and am also curious to see how well my Sautekh will perform against them. Holding a 6 person friendly tourney in a couple weeks. Hopefully I'll get a chance to have a go at them.


Balance by excluding options. I think inherent unit balance is better than limiting what can be fielded.

By the way Krieg had extensive titan support during the Siege of Vraks.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:43 am 
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Yes I agree but I suggest we should tread lightly and verify and not theory hammer (not claiming you or anyone else is Rug, just reminding us to test first). I'm with onyx in the Trojans should be a cost upgrade. The silo is fluffy and thematic and probably should just be a really tough AV with no characters allowed (DKiK lead from the front). Actually I think they should only be in infantry and death riders, period.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:54 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Taking the one Onyx just posted as an example of a decent krieg list, with this new revision they are an army that spends its first 1,525 points to gain 6 heavy bolters and 3 stubbers worth of fire power.
Considering the importance of Engagements in Epic Armageddon, what you're also getting for 1525pts is:
    60x CC6+/FF5+
    18x 4+ reinforced armour saves
    Mobile, reinforced armour protected artillery (for the 50 extra points I used in my list)
    A Supreme Commander re-roll
    3x FEARLESS Commissars (free of course)

There is little point in focusing on the direct shooting power of these formations as that is not what they are about. They are at best going to be placing a BM to prepare the target formation for the dozens of supporting fire attacks that are to follow.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Just to show what's still possible with this list:
    Regimental HQ Company + Gorgons + Mortars =625
    Infantry Company + Gorgons =475
    Infantry Company + Gorgons =475
    Heavy Support Battery (2x Hydras 1x Heavy AA platform with free Trojans) =125
    Super-Heavy Tank Platoon (Shadowsword) =200
    Death Rider Scout Platoon =150
    Deathstrike Silo =250
    Two Thunderbolt Fighters =150
    One Warhound Titan =275
    One Warhound Titan =275

3000pts.


That's a good list made with the new revision.
Of the things in the list, the deathstrike is easier to break and easier to kill, the three large formations have increased in cost, lost their mortars, got a worse crit and had 20 infantry drop from CC5+ to CC6+, and the list itself has lost one formation (probably anti air) compared to what we would have faced in the past.
Actually, what the list has lost from it's previous incarnation is a lone Shadowsword (a good thing to be rid of for sure but not enough to make it balanced).

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:17 pm 
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Ohhh good point Rug on the pinpoint. We've finally found a real reason for the DC1 War Engine!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:17 pm 
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Hi!

I post in a previous page (2 I think, sorry I can't quote it from the phone) a comparison between LR and Macharius. Pure maths, it seems that Macharius are not so bad...ok, they are worse in AT role, but is that the primary role of this formation?
I have not read a lot about the fluff, but I imagine them more as a "moving castle" in the trenches, and considering that trenches are mostly infantry, they seem fine to me in a AP role.

About the rest of the list...I have not been able to playtest it yet, but reading all your comments it seems that the main problems are Gorgons and Silo. For the Silo I have read some interesting proposals and I think it is advancing.
What would you do with the Gorgons? Just increase the points? Could it work a restriction of 0-1 per 1.500 or similar? If it is fine with the Death Riders (a much softer formation IMO) it should also work with the Gorgons, right?

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:25 am 
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IMO something that does the kind of damage that a deathstrike does has absolutely no business being "tough". That is just from a game design point of view. Nobody likes a powerful item that cannot be countered. I am quite sure that it's possible to neutralise a 2-3DC 4+ RA WE by turn 3, but the point is you shouldn't have to dedicate a formation of terminators, or an air assault, or multiple smaller formations to dealing with it. Especially if it has already fired and is now a fearless inspiring RA WE sitting on an objective.

The fragility (both from having poor armour and from being normal units that can be broken from a single hit) is what just about makes the standard deathstrike formation acceptable. Yes it can stick around on the blitz as an extra formation you need to break, but can usually be broken by supporting a losing assault, by a tbolt, etc etc. As a Krieg player you may think "the silo is always gone by turn 3 therefore it is not very good" but actually the opposite is true. If something is very good, your opponent will dedicate a lot of resources for dealing with it. And that's great, because he suffers a huge opportunity cost (i.e. the cost of not doing something else with them).

IMO its best to stick with the feared but generally accepted deathstrike formation. There's nothing stopping people from using the silo model if they want to represent them (and just not moving them). Another idea could be to make it a unit that replaces the blitz objective (and of course can't capture or contest itself), that cannot take a commissar and is easier to kill. Say 2DC.

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:14 pm 
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atension wrote:
What are the weaknesses of the list? I've been looking into the list more closely as one of my opponent is looking to put up a force in the near future. I've yet to play against it but am curious about strategies that work well against it. It seems to have formations that can perform every function very well and as a whole has no real deficiencies.



I think something worth mentioning that hasn't gotten a lot of attention (maybe because its obvious?) is how painfully slow this entire army is - something the math can't really account for. Besides warhounds - nothing moves faster than 20cm. I've been playing my DKoK in a local league and I rarely get more than 1 unit over into the enemies half of the board. While this is VERY fluffy for the army - it is a tactical drawback. If an opponent wants to go for for a 'hold the line' and 'they shall not pass' victory, a DKoK army will be hard pressed to take the fight to the enemy on their half of the board. This army excels at defensive tactics - chewing up the enemy army as they advance towards them.

Whereas my Steel Legion list is much more versatile. You can have tank and artillery companies sit back and shoot while mechanized infantry marches 90cm up a flank. With things like auto canons SL infantry are also much more versatile - units in the DKoK list tend to be lazer focused on either assault or shooting.

The more I play my DKoK list the more I go back and forth on whether or not I think they need to be nerfed...

I think units like the dreaded silo are there to try and balance the slowness of the army. If they aren't mobile they need to be able to reach out and touch things. Otherwise what can a DKoK list do against an ordinatus behind a hill? or a phantom titan picking off its gorgons?

...All that said I've had opponents totally frustrated by the Silo's, feeling like they couldn't do anything to counter it...but I've also had my silo's taken out top of turn 1 by thunderhawks and or landa's. Same with Gorgons (or as I like call them 'The Imperial Clown Car') sometimes their amazing, other times if opponents hang back their 15cm speed is utterly frustrating. I find I rarely use my siege mortars, how can I afford to stand still for a turn and or not assault something??? with 15cm move and no other shooting it seems almost a detriment to stand still for 1/3 of the game for some BP (something the list does not lack for).


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:28 pm 
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esadous wrote:

...All that said I've had opponents totally frustrated by the Silo's, feeling like they couldn't do anything to counter it...but I've also had my silo's taken out top of turn 1 by thunderhawks and or landa's. Same with Gorgons (or as I like call them 'The Imperial Clown Car') sometimes their amazing, other times if opponents hang back their 15cm speed is utterly frustrating. I find I rarely use my siege mortars, how can I afford to stand still for a turn and or not assault something??? with 15cm move and no other shooting it seems almost a detriment to stand still for 1/3 of the game for some BP (something the list does not lack for).


Gorgons are 20cm move,with a double move you should be almost on the half way line at the end of turn 1.


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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:36 pm 
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yeah double and march are not uncommon orders on T1 for gorgons. it's slower but not slow (see BSM for SLOWWWWWWwwww)

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 Post subject: Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:16 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
esadous wrote:

Gorgons are 20cm move,with a double move you should be almost on the half way line at the end of turn 1.



Oops, that's my bad....goes to show how new I am to the army - I've been moving 15cm :nooo


I stand by what I said...just with like...20% less fervor ;)


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