I did chew on it a bit....

Okay, how about his (slightly modified from E&C)

Core Formations
0-1 Tallarn HQ Company - 350 Points
(1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander and 12 Tallarn Infantry units)
Tallarn Infantry Company - 250 Points
(1 Imperial Guard Commander and 12 Tallarn Infantry units)
Sentinel Raider Company - 300 points
(6 Sentinels and 4 Support Sentinels)

Upgrades
Fire Support Platoon (4 Fire Support units) - 100
AA Platoon (4 Sabre AA platforms) - 100
Infantry Platoon (6 Tallarn Infantry) - 100
Sentinels (4 Sentinels or 2 Support Sentinels) - 100

Support Formations
Tallarn Rough Riders - 150 points
(6 Rough Riders)
Mukaali Rough Riders - 200 points
(6 Mukaali Riders)
Tauros Platoon - 150 points
(4 Tauros or Tauros Venators)
Tallarn Desert Raiders - 225 points
(6 Tallarn Veterans)
Light Support Platoon - 200 points
(4 Tauros Carriers and either 4 Fire Support, 4 Quad Launchers, 4 Heavy Mortars or 4 Sabres)

Allies
2 Thunderbolts - 150 points
1 Marauder - 150 points
0-1 Orbital Support - 200 points

Tauros Carrier (Venator chassis)
Type LV
Speed 35cm
CC 6+
FF 6+
Weapons: None
Notes: Walker, Transport (1 from the following: Fire Support, Tallarn Veterans, Heavy Mortar, Quad Launcher, Sabre Platform)

Tallarn Veterans
Type INF
Speed 15cm
CC 5+
FF 5+
Armor None
Weapons Missile Launcher, 45cm, AT5+/AT6+
Notes Scouts, Teleport (or, instead of teleport, they gain a 6+ cover save in the open, or +1 to their cover save when in cover)

Mukaali Riders
Type INF
Speed 20cm
CC 4+
FF 6+
Armor 5+
Weapons Laspistols, Chainswords, Power Lance (usual stats)
Notes Infiltrate, Mounted, (Walker?)

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

Instead of this:



Tallarn Sabres should look more like this:

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

So anyone willing to start playtesting our lists?

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

I'm relatively good with the above but I think RR and Orbital support should be ditched entirely. The former due to the fact we don't need as many options in the list and the fluff doesn't really support it as well as it hurts playtesting/adoption as you cannot use counts-as anymore. The latter as it doesn't fit thematically for a sneaky army AND for balance as sneaky armies mean you bunch up more for protection but that means massed MW barrage becomes outstanding choices as your ability and likelihood of laying the smack down on the enemy, especially in T1 increases. I think a T1 SR boost to represent the offensive raider nature of this force is a possibility. I agree with your Sabre's. They're on wheels (doesn't make a lick of difference on the models one uses) and I cannot remember about the existing unit stats from other lists but in this case I think they might be good as LV representing their fragile unproteced natures. For heavy support the presence of Leman Russ Conquerors is a good one (as you brought up earlier). They've got the speed and the lighter armament that this theme fits AND there's some need for some RA to provide the ability to soak up some damage. As they stand right now they're too much paper. They should be a support choice (unlocked by Core formations) and probably at a unit of 6 which is well played / tested in many other guard lists and is an excellent starting point.

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Thank you for that feedback. As I'm still just a fanboi and haven't played much/lack the chances to play much, I'm not sure what T1 SR boost and stuff like that means. My last game of E:A was about 15 years ago it seems.

As for RR (rough riders, right?), I do think fluff supports it and I see it as a very thematic fit for Desert Raiders--especially mounted on their mukaali (and I just painted up a platoon of Tallarn RR a couple of days ago to use in a possible Desert Raider list, darn it! ). As it fits now in the two latest lists, they're as sneaky as any Tauros or Conqueror squadron but be able to avoid a massed MW barrage a bit better as they'd be scouts and spread out (that's how scout works, right?). But I do see your point about having so many options.

Orbital support is available to all IG regiments, right? I'll have to go look at that. I can do without it, but does that leave the list lacking in punch?

But how about having RR as an upgrade to a core formation then (not a sentinel company, though)? Outriders skirmishing ahead of the main force of troops? True scouts in the sense?

What if this happened: 0-1 Conquerors x6 as a support formation? That way, a bit of RA can be used if needed, is fast enough to keep in the speed/raider theme, but is limited so it can't be spammed.

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

mukaali are fluffy and thematic. Rough riders are not. The big dinosaurs specifically used by the Tallarn due to the fact their entire ecosystem was destroyed leaving the planet a desert wasteland due to Iron Warriors virus bombing the planet during the Horus Heresy. They're one of few fauna capable of surviving the harsh environment of Tallarn.

The inclusion of both in the list bloats it a bit and for more practical purposes makes the list harder to attract players as with both options available means that it's far harder to proxy the mukaali. You can't take your existing rough riders and say they are counts as mukaali for this game. It's pure realpoltik

I like the stronger restriction of conquers but I'm not a fan of X strict number as they fail to scale as the game increases. They become proportionally more effective at 2k games than 5k. I'd suggest one per 1000 or 1500 instead perhaps? Also to add some desert war feel, allow outriders for the tanks perhaps? EpicUK has that and works well. Something to think about.

The orbital bombardment is a deliberate nerf to a highly sneaky list. Tallarn are pretty immune to orbital bombardment. I'm thinking of their opponents. It's not fun to have telport insanity that the standard counter opens you up to getting blasted from space. Also for the record, there's multiple imperial lists without option for spaceships.

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Oh also due to your question around strategy rating, increasing the ability of the force to have a higher rating at turn 1 means they're more likely to win initiative and go first, reflecting in gameplay their raider and rapid response nature.

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Duh...SR = Strategy Rating. I knew that. Sorry.

I see what you mean about Rough Riders. I wasn't making that distinction--my bad. Yes, I agree, if it has to be done, then only have the mukaali. I know that Tallarns are depicted riding horses, and quite a bit, but that was all before the big lizards were released from Forge World. Only mukaali, and if so, then should they be any different from normal RR units, stat-wise? Would they works as only an upgrade to a core infantry formation instead? Or is still having them as a support formation work out--just "heavy rough riders/mukaali" and not normal Rough Riders?

For Conquerors, I still like them as a non-mixed unit (I haven't thought about "outriders" for them so haven't wrapped my head around it yet), and I do agree about restrictions like I mentioned, AND perhaps you're right about having a 0-1 per XXXX amount of army points (0-1 per 1000 for x4 Conquerors or 0-1 per 1500 or more for x6 Conquerors). Is that done in other lists, aside from core formations (only support type formations)? Regardless, I still want Conquerors in the list.

I'll adjust my list a bit tonight and post it again how I see it now. Hopefully I get some more input before I do it.

Any thoughts about missile-launcher armed Tallarn veterans, in place of sniper-rifled armed one?

Again, thanks.

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

Core Formations
0-1 Tallarn HQ Company - 350 Points
(1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander and 12 Tallarn Infantry units)
Tallarn Infantry Company - 250 Points
(1 Imperial Guard Commander and 12 Tallarn Infantry units)
Sentinel Raider Company - 300 points
(6 Sentinels and 4 Support Sentinels)

Upgrades
Fire Support Platoon (4 Fire Support units) - 100
AA Platoon (4 Sabre AA platforms) - 100
Infantry Platoon (6 Tallarn Infantry) - 100
Sentinels (4 Sentinels or 2 Support Sentinels) - 100
Mukaali Outriders (4 Rough Riders) - 150

Support Formations
Tauros Platoon - 150 points
(4 Tauros or Tauros Venators)
Tallarn Desert Raiders - 225 points
(6 Tallarn Veterans)
Light Support Platoon - 200 points
(4 Tauros Carriers and either 4 Fire Support, 4 Quad Launchers, 4 Heavy Mortars or 4 Sabres)
Tallarn Assault Tanks - 340 points (0-1 per 1000pts)
(6 Conqueror Tanks)

Allies
2 Thunderbolts - 150 points
1 Marauder - 150 points

Tauros Carrier (Venator chassis)
Type LV
Speed 35cm
CC 6+
FF 6+
Weapons: None
Notes: Walker, Transport (1 from the following: Fire Support, Tallarn Veterans, Heavy Mortar, Quad Launcher, Sabre Platform)

Tallarn Veterans
Type INF
Speed 15cm
CC 5+
FF 5+
Armor None
Weapons Missile Launcher, 45cm, AT5+/AT6+
Notes Scouts, Teleport (or, instead of teleport, they gain a 6+ cover save in the open, or +1 to their cover save when in cover)

Mukaali Riders
As Rough Riders

* * * * *

I also just had a thought: what if the Conquerors were purchased through the Allies section?

This version takes into consideration that the Mukaali are just normal Rough Riders, but ride the big lizards instead of horses. However, they can be the "heavy" versions in the previous list, but they have to retain scout in place of losing a different ability, while retaining the new 5+ armor save.

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

Good idea on the conquerors.

I think your version from above works nicely as a starting point and has enough uniqueness in play to make them worth doing as such

Mukaali Riders
Type INF
Speed 20cm
CC 4+
FF 6+
Armor 5+
Weapons Laspistols, Chainswords, Power Lance (usual stats)
Notes Infiltrate, Mounted, Walker

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remove:

Support Formations
Tallarn Assault Tanks - 340 points (0-1 per 1000 points)

and add:

Allies
Tallarn Assault Tanks - 340 points

Also:

Are the mukaali riders (with the stats you noted from my earlier list, being "heavy rough riders") be fine as a core formation upgrade or as their own support formation? As an upgrade, they'll just be packed in with the company they are part of and I don't see much role as a scout that way (lacking scouts). As a support choice, they can range freely and scout for everyone but are "without a master" sort of thing, and still lack scouts. I'm not sure which way is better. I think I prefer them as an upgrade only, and gain scout in place of something else, and if someone wants to run a light type list full of Rough Riders or whatever, they can create an Attillan Rough Riders army list and have fun with it.

Venator Haulers and Tallarn Veterans. Any specific comments on those? I like them as is, just not too sure about the points cost or balance.

Finally, can someone volunteer to playtest this a bit, either soon or when we've done more tweaking? I'd rather not wait till Gencon when I can meet someone and try it out (and learn to play again).

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

Lets try them as support for now. Keep the focus more on light infantry.

I'm down for a game of vassal provided you don't mind too much a pseudo play by email approach? (make an activation-email the save file with a wee bit of explaining )

This could be good fun. Just an FYI theres an attlian RR list in Ben's mechanicum supplement. It's pretty baked from last I checked.

There's an Ati

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I'll have to look into what this vassal is and how to make it work.

I have never played by email anything actually, either.

I'm so old-fashioned.

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders

Just reread IA 3, 1st edition and for the record you were right about the horses being an option Splash. I still think the either - or works better here for the afore mentioned playtesting reasons.

Vassal is basically a free table/board game simulator. It doesn't enforce rules or lists or anything legal in game machanics. It simply allows two or more individuals to view a virtualized table and record who moved what sprite element where and to share a dice rolling tool. You can download it here => http://www.vassalengine.org/download.php

If someone happened to have a plug-in that happened to facilitate playing EA, they certainly could leverage that software to do it

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I'm good with keeping it the "heavy" rough rider/mukaali and not worrying about normal rough riders for the time being.

I'm downloading that vassal thing now...I'll start fooling around with it this evening.

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Tau Empire, Mymeara Eldar, Tallarn Desert Raiders