Tactical Command :: View topic - Guard Tank Variants

1. Well it could be cheaper than the Demolisher

2. Well the Multi-melta shouldn't be effective against Infantry from the beginning. Only single shot in Wh40k same as a Lascannon which does nothing against Infantry in Epic too. But MW doesen't makes a destinction between AP an AT.

3. Oops edited it to the correct DC 3.

4. Maybe. The proposed Capitol Imperialis has a similar rule.

4.

The Leman Russ Eradicator really is just an underpowered demolisher; it's the same in 40k. Obviously it'd be a lot cheaper if it was ever included in any list.

MW 4+ seems reasonable for the devil dog to me.

Note that the Stormlord is probably already the best superheavy by a HUGE margin. It doesn't need the boost of troops being able to shoot out. It's already a nightmare; 300 points worth at least.

There is a similar problem going with the Banehammer and Banesword.
60cm 1BP, Disrupt vs. 75cm 2BP, MW? Disrupt is good, but not good enough to justify the extra BP, MW, and a 56% increase of area of effect. At least not at the same price.

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Mon May 17, 2010 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Guard Tank Variants
Has anyone taken a stab yet at the following: Leman Russ variants: Punisher, Annihilator (simple this), and Eradicator Hellhound variants: Devil Dog and Bane Wolf Super Heavies: Banehammer, Doomhammer, Stormlord, and Banesword. Win the Mind, Win the Day Airborne All The Way

Author:	BlackLegion [ Mon May 17, 2010 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
Yes i did (who else? )but the thread is a bit scrambled so i will repost them here: Vakyrie Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Multilaser 45cm AP5+/AT6+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Twin Multiple Rocket Launcher 30cm AP4+ - Notes: Skimmer, Scout, Transport (may carry two Stormtrooper units).. Vendetta Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - 2 x Hellfury Missile 75cm 1BP Disrupt, One-Shot Notes: Skimmer, Scout, Transport (may carry two Stormtrooper units).. Leman Russ Vanquisher Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Vanquisher Cannon 75cm AT2+ Macro-weapon Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: Reinforced Armour. Leman Russ Eradicator Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Eradicator Nova Cannon 30cm AP4+ Ignore Cover Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: Reinforced Armour. Leman Russ Punisher Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Punisher Gatling Cannon 30cm 3 x AP5+ - Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: Reinforced Armour. Leman Russ Executioner Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Executioner Plasma Cannon 30cm 3 x AP4+/AT4+ Slow-Firing Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: Reinforced Armour. Leman Russ Exterminator Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Exterminator Autocannon 45cm 2 x AP5+/AT6+ - Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: Reinforced Armour. Banewolf Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 30cm 4+ 6+ 3+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Cemical Cannon 15cm AP2+ Ignore Cover Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Devildog Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 30cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Melta Cannon 15cm MW5+ - Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: The Melta Cannon can shoot and be used to confer the macro-weapon ability to the unit's firefight value. Colossus Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 5+ 6+ 6+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Colossus Siege Mortar 15-120cm 1BP Indirect Fire, Ignore Cover Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Notes: Colossus Siege Mortar can only fire indirect.. Manticore Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 20cm 5+ 6+ 6+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Storm Eagle Rockets 60cm D3BP Indirect Fire, Disrupt, Slow-Firing Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Banehammer Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight War Engine 15cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Tremor Cannon 60cm 1BP Disrupt, Fixed Forward Arc Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+ - 2 x Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Banhammer's magazine explodes. The Banehammer is destroyed, and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6. Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry two Ogryn or any five of the following units: Imperial Guard units: Supreme Commander, Commander, Infantry, Fire Support, Snipers). Stormlord Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight War Engine 15cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Vulcan Mega-Bolter 45cm 4 x AP3+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+ - 2 x Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Stormlord's magazine explodes. The Stormlord is destroyed, and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6. Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry four Ogryn or any eight of the following units: Imperial Guard units: Supreme Commander, Commander, Infantry, Fire Support, Snipers). Banesword Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight War Engine 15cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Banesword Quake Cannon 75cm 2BP Macro-weapon, Fixed Forward Arc Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+ - 2 x Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Flamer 15cm AP3+ - Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Banesword's magazine explodes. The Banesword is destroyed, and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6. Notes: Reinforced Armour. Doomhammer Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight War Engine 15cm 4+ 6+ 4+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Magma Cannon 60cm MW4+ Fixed Forward Arc Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+ - 2 x Lascannon 45cm AT5+ - 2 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ - Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Doomhammer's energy coil explodes. The Doomhammer is destroyed, and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6. Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry two Ogryn or any five of the following units: Imperial Guard units: Supreme Commander, Commander, Infantry, Fire Support, Snipers).

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Mon May 17, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
Thanks BlackLegion, this is some good stuff to read. I do have a few questions: 1) Leman Russ Eradicator: I've really torn on how to model this on myself. My question, is the better way to make this more competative with the Demolisher? My earlier thought had been as a 1 BP weapon that ignored cover,...but maybe that's too large an area for it to cover. Just wondering if there's a way in EA to make it different then an under-powered Demolisher. 2) Devil Dog: Was trying to think if it was within reason to make the Melta Cannon different from a normal Multi-Melta. Maybe MW4+ due to it's Blast characteristic? 3) Your Super Heavies, shouldn't they all be DC 3? 4) Also for the Super Heavies; those that Transport are noted in Apocolypse as acting as fighting platforms for their embarked infantry. Given that EA's Transport rule left it open that potentially there would be future vehicles where some transported infantry could fire while embarked, would it potentially be Stormlord 4 infantry, and Doomhammer and Banehammer 2 infantry, are able to fire while embarked? At least in FireFight, and maybe support weapons? Heh,...but then again here I go suggesting new rules, and from someone with such a low post count and never even a PDF'd army list to my name. And we've seen how that turned out on the Astartes discussion. Ah well, least you thought my idea had merit. Thanks again Black Legion. I'll have to hit you up via PM for any creations you've done for the Marines as I'd like a take on the LR Ares and Terminus Ultras.

Author:	BlackLegion [ Tue May 18, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
1. Well it could be cheaper than the Demolisher 2. Well the Multi-melta shouldn't be effective against Infantry from the beginning. Only single shot in Wh40k same as a Lascannon which does nothing against Infantry in Epic too. But MW doesen't makes a destinction between AP an AT. 3. Oops edited it to the correct DC 3. 4. Maybe. The proposed Capitol Imperialis has a similar rule. 4.

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Tue May 18, 2010 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
BlackLegion wrote: 1. Well it could be cheaper than the Demolisher True. Just wondering if there's just SOME WAY to make it unique and viable in it's own right. Quote: 2. Well the Multi-melta shouldn't be effective against Infantry from the beginning. Only single shot in Wh40k same as a Lascannon which does nothing against Infantry in Epic too. But MW doesen't makes a destinction between AP an AT. For the Multi-Melta, yep I agree. But we seem to be stuck with it. But the Melta Cannon of the Devil Dog, now THERE we get a melta weapon that CAN hurt infantry and in bunches. So,...is it possible that it's Blast aspect in WH40K would bump it up to MW 4+? Or Ignore Cover? There's gotta be something... $:-\$ [/quote] Quote: 3. Oops edited it to the correct DC 3. 4. Maybe. The proposed Capitol Imperialis has a similar rule. 4. Thanks for the feedback. This is the kinda discussion I appreciate, especially for a relative newbie like me.

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Author:	zombocom [ Tue May 18, 2010 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
The Leman Russ Eradicator really is just an underpowered demolisher; it's the same in 40k. Obviously it'd be a lot cheaper if it was ever included in any list. MW 4+ seems reasonable for the devil dog to me. Note that the Stormlord is probably already the best superheavy by a HUGE margin. It doesn't need the boost of troops being able to shoot out. It's already a nightmare; 300 points worth at least.

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Tue May 18, 2010 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
zombocom wrote: The Leman Russ Eradicator really is just an underpowered demolisher; it's the same in 40k. Obviously it'd be a lot cheaper if it was ever included in any list. Yeah,...just wondering if there's something I'm missing to give it it's own place in Epic,...or if it's really even worth the effort. Quote: MW 4+ seems reasonable for the devil dog to me. Note that the Stormlord is probably already the best superheavy by a HUGE margin. It doesn't need the boost of troops being able to shoot out. It's already a nightmare; 300 points worth at least. Oh most definietly the Stormlord is a beast. My own thoughts were the Fighting Platform aspect seems an integral part of it's design. Maybe the embarked infantry cannot use their longer ranged weapons and can only do so with their Firefight or Close Combat when the Stormlord participates in an assault. Does seem a balance in that to use that function in requires the super heavy to go in harm's way with an assault. Hmmm... $:-\$ certainly needs some testing. One possibility is that while the Vulcan Megabolter is impressive,...it is shorter ranged then many AT weapons out there and given it's capabilites, well it could very well become a Missile Magnet before even coming to grips. Certainly worth looking into. Oh, speaking of Stormlords...given the close combat role maybe the sponson guns should be (twin) heavy flamers as opposed to heavy bolters. This also may make it more palitable with embarked troops able to shoot (which you think certainly would have shown for Ork AFVs...particularly their super heavies...).

Author:	zombocom [ Tue May 18, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
If the troops can firefight from inside of it, effectively the whole formation gains a 4+ reinforced save. That's just too good.

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Tue May 18, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
True,...and the fact a loaded Stormlord would have a 3 FF shots at 4+, and then potentially another 4 at 5+ (or some 4+ if there are Support Squads embarked). But is there any balance in that survival of the infantry will largely depend on the Stormhammer, which is likely going to draw alot of attention? As folks have stated before in other discussions, there is that serious risk of keeping troops embarked on their transports when closing, let alone closing into Assault distances. Anyhow,...just a thought I figured could deserve practical testing along with academic discussion. Wish I could do it m'self, but needs of the Army are pushing more and more of late.

Author:	Spectrar Ghost [ Wed May 19, 2010 2:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
There is a similar problem going with the Banehammer and Banesword. 60cm 1BP, Disrupt vs. 75cm 2BP, MW? Disrupt is good, but not good enough to justify the extra BP, MW, and a 56% increase of area of effect. At least not at the same price.

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Wed May 19, 2010 3:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
Spectrar Ghost wrote: There is a similar problem going with the Banehammer and Banesword. 60cm 1BP, Disrupt vs. 75cm 2BP, MW? Disrupt is good, but not good enough to justify the extra BP, MW, and a 56% increase of area of effect. At least not at the same price. Well, in Black Legion's defense he never did give a price. But the Banesword's Quake Cannon, that should be a Quake Cannon off a Titan. And going by EA's Titan Weapon list the stats should be Range: 120cm, Firepower & Notes: 3 BP, MW, Slow-Firing (and fixed forward given the platform). So Black Legion has actually unpowered it from the official numbers, though firing much faster. Now I could see a drop in range (a Banesword doesn't have the elevation of a Titan), but the Shadowsword already killed that as it's Volcano Cannon works just like that of a Titan,...expect for it being fixed forward. So realistically the Banesword is underpowered for what it's supposed to have right now. (And woe to the foes of The Emperor, the first Enginseer with a broken Banesword that gets the spark in his cyber'd melon to put stabilizer legs and a high elevation mount on the rig,...it'd make much of the Guard heavy arty look like popguns).

Author:	Spectrar Ghost [ Wed May 19, 2010 3:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
Agreed on the price, especially as BL tends to fit his designs to 40k first and foremost. That is the same reason for the disparity in the Quake's stats; they are based off the stats of the 40k tanks.

Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Wed May 19, 2010 4:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
That's why I think it's good to get a couple of heads to together and hash these things out, especially with some of the new weapons that have shown up with the Guard (Melta Cannon on the Devil Dog, Nova Cannon on the Eradicator, Punisher on the,...well, Punisher). Oh! That reminds me! There's another Super Heavy that hasn't gotten a look at yet, or at least it's main armament. The cannon on the Hellhammer. Thoughts?

Author:	zombocom [ Wed May 19, 2010 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
Basically GW never intended the Superheavies (or Russ varients) to be worth the same ammount. This list is useful for list designers to pull from and adjust, not for direct swaps.

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Author:	Morgan_Keyes [ Wed May 19, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Guard Tank Variants
Yes, that's pretty much my thinking too. And that was pretty much my intent. Just wanting to see how some others have approached it and how that compares to my own thoughts. As far as pricing a unit,...that I'll leave to others for the time being. I'm just looking for the other stats, getting them as close to the intent of the original design while still working in the framework of Epic.