Post yer thoughts fellas...

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Its

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

My reactions/thoughts....




Steel Legion / Generic:


Commissars - Still random, rather than fixed. A poor choice IMO as it makes modelling a good looking army a more lengthy task. Stated concerns about balance need only have applied to the Steel Legion and Siegemasters lists, so they could have been fixed for the two new lists surely.

Commissars 2 - Commissars denied to Titans. A big thumbs up on this one from me.

Rough Riders - Retining their origial stats and points cost, probably still too good, but only marginally so.

Vultures - Left with their original stats, well, they've never been a problem for me.

Griffons - Retains original points cost (anyone ever actually think these are useful at 100pts?), not good IMO.

Hellhounds - Retains original points cost (am I the only person to take them to a UK tournament in the last few years? And that being because I liked the model and theme, not because I thought they were useful?), again not good IMO.

Deathstrike - Main weapon loses "No LOF" and becomes "Indirect". Good!

Baneblade - Given new stats. I prefer the NetEA stats as they are WYSIWYG for the secondary weapons, and match the background better for the primary gun IMO. NetEA stats still don't make it as good as a Shadowsword so I don't see what the problem was with using their stats.

Marauder Bomber - Still only a points decrease, with no stat increase. I'd expect them to continue unseen at tournaments.

=====

Siegemasters : Points modifications for formations to balance the list. Good!

=====

Ulani Tank Regiment:

Tank Riders - Tank Riders being immune to being shot at is, regardless of balance considerations, not historically accurate. If anything, riding a tank should make you more vulnerable to enemy fire, not completely immune (historical casualty rates for tank riders were horrific). So the rule may be balanced, but it's not a good implementation IMO.


Executioner stats and points structure - I like them a lot, moreso than the NetEA ones.


Conqueror stats - I think I prefer the NetEA stats for the speed, and the EpicUK stats for armour.    


Tank Destroyer - We tested an AT2+, Sniper implementation when working on the Minervan tank regiment and found it notably and consistently overpowered, and that was without the Scout ability letting it Garrison. YMMV.


Stormblade - Stats not WYSIWYG, so I prefer the NetEA implementation, with FF5+ to balance it as agreed after the publication of Raiders.


=====

Vannaheim Air Cavalry


CAP rule - Seems very cool.

Overall I love the look of the list, and reckon this is how the NetEA Elysian list should behave!



-----
I agree with any other changes that I haven't mentioned, unless I missed the change on my first read through, in which case I reserve the right to modify that implied and unstated opinion.  




Overall.

Steel Legion - Better than it was, could have been better with a few more tweaks IMO.
Siegemasters - Much better!
Ulani - I mostly like the look of it, but am not a fan of the tank riders implementation, regardless of balance it is more like an abstract "rule" than a "simulation rule" mechanic.
Vannaheim Air Cav - I love the look of the list, EpicUK's best list so far IMO. I hope the NetEA Elysian list will adopt a similar format. An unreserved 5 stars.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I have questions on the air cavalry.  My first question is how the balance issues were with the Valkyries being that you can get 7 BP on one formation.  This was tried on the Elysian list and most people found it excessive.

Likewise the mortars are 1BP each, but you can get up to 4BP with a 60cm range (indirect) when you pull both upgrades and that seems like some heavy firepower for tube weapons.  

My last question is why didn't you just go with the name Elysian?  Not a complaint - just curious.

EDIT


There are some serious differences.  The Air Cav list contains more ranged weaponry which -as I understand- is not what the Elysians have as standard equipment.  In the Elysian list you can buy upgrades but it costs you.  There is no 'dropping' via teleport, no support sentinels, the Marauder Destroyers are standard bombers instead of DC2 bombers, but these are small benefits when compared to the larger formations and shooting ability Vannaheim have.  Without having played the Air Cav list I can only guess, but based on those observations the Air Cav list looks like it would be much more powerful and probably overly so.  The places where the Elysians are weakest (infantry formations being supressed) are made stronger with Vannaheim's weapon load outs.  The BP available to this EpicUK list is massive compared to the Elysians.  Even with the Elysian list as is, I'm still running a heavy win ratio.  It seems like the Vannaheims would be even easier to win with, but it is difficult to say with certainty without playing it.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Oh are EpicUK interested in hearing about grammatical typos?
I've noticed a couple.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Yes, any typo's will be cleaned up in a review in 6 months time so please post what you've found.

I don't think the two lists have that much in common. The Elysians are a drop style army while the Vanaheim are an air mobile force. Different name for a different doctrine, and definately different levels of equipment.

We decided that we couldn't do both types of lists and chose the air mobile.

As to Valkyries, you can get some horrible barrages off once, when in 30cm of the target. Good luck after that!

I know early in 2009 Ginger and Dptdexys were doing some tests of the eylysians and found them playable, but I can't remember there exact conclusions.

It's been argued that calling the Elysians a 'drop style' force in Epic scale is to incorrectly view how they operate at 40k scale and then apply the same doctrine to Epic...

...so what you see as troops 'dropping' in 40k scale can well be viewed as troops just doubling around with Valkyries in a formation in Epic scale.

So I'd say the difference is not that great and it's just a matter of how you choose to implement the concept.

Certainly the Vannaheim list uses a lot of Elysian gear, and by my eye is "just" Elysians with a different name.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

That thought didn't stop EpicUK duplicating a lot of the NetEA Marine lists (the Templars list was even a re-mix of the NetEA one)...

...shrug, it's still an Elysian list anyway whatever it's labelled as.


Just by eye alone, I prefer the Vannaheim list as an Elysian list to the NetEA Elysian list anyway!  

Though that may change in time, especially as and when the Elysian FAV and Skycranes are released.





Hellhounds are okay (a bit overpriced, when for 50pts more you can get 3x Leman Russ Demolishers, which offer far greater capability and resiliance), IMO, whilst Griffons, as an Upgrade, are simply rubbish whichever way you look at it (though they're fine as a Support choice where their weapons aren't sitting at odds with the entire rest of the formation they're attached to!).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

E&C, that has been your stated opinion from the beginning. We disagree. As detailed in IA3, the vast majority of Elysian troopers fly in with their Valkyries, jump out the back and land on their feet, and the Valkyries fly home. It's very clear that they are separated from vehicles that transported them there.

However, there is still an option within the list that allows those that want to fly their troops in, to take Valks as transports and keep them with the formation.

That design feature is not going to change.



This is not just troops dropping in 40K scale. The mechanism models how the army is described in the fluff. Period. The scale is irrelevant.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

We do.  

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I like the look of the new Army Book  

Well then I can understand and appreciate the difference in names then.  
I just noticed the Vultures are missing from the Air Cav list, so perhaps with so many tools removed the list could be balanced.  I take back what I said earlier - although I may want to take the list out for a spin one of these days just to satisfy my curiosity.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Don't give me a heart attack Mosc!

The vulture is in there.