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The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=17092		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
So, the most major talking point on the Death Korps list at this point in time is whether or not the Heavy Bolter Sponsons should be removed from the Leman Russ tanks.

It is known that Leman Russ tanks are never depicted with Heavy Bolter Sponsons in photos in Imperial Armour books, so one can certainly make the argument that the archetypical Death Korps Leman Russ does not have Sponsons.

However, you can also note that Forgeworld has never depicted a Leman Russ tank with Sponsons in any of their photos, whether that be Cadian, Steel Legion, Tallarn or Death Korps... so I do not consider photos from Imperial Armour to be ample enough evidence to close the case.


And so it comes down to style, and practicality.

Style, would be interesting, granting cheaper, less capable Russ formations.

Practicality, it's possible to make Sponsonless Russes from SG & FW components, if you don't mind paying double the price for each tank. :)


And so I ask, as I always do to close a debate that has not been settled through pure talk, for the opinions of the community.

Cheers for voting. :)
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
One thing that does't seem to be considered in the "sponson-less" debate is that the FF value of such tanks should probably be downgrades by one "pip" since they are losing a signifiant amount of close-in rapid fire weaponry.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Quote: (Chroma @ Nov. 07 2009, 20:57 )

One thing that does't seem to be considered in the "sponson-less" debate is that the FF value of such tanks should probably be downgrades by one "pip" since they are losing a signifiant amount of close-in rapid fire weaponry.

I agree, that's certainly something I expected would happen.


Also, I have vague plans about making a Death Korps Tank Regiment list at some point, which could actually have sponsonless tanks...
Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Quote: 

Practicality, it's possible to make Sponsonless Russes from SG & FW components, if you don't mind paying double the price for each tank.


Or you could just use FW russes with minor/simple turret conversions for a far cheaper option :agree:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Do what ever is easist ... :)
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:05 am ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
I voted no sponsons because thisd would make the DK stand out even more from other Imperial Guard armies :)
Author:  Pulsar [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
i don't use guard, so i like beef!!
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Where is the Heavy Flamer option? :)

I say with lots of guns. They are supporting an infantry assault here so any speed above 15 is fine.

However for your armour regiment I strongly suggest speed 25 no sponson tanks. Speed 20 is just not fast enough in Epic to have any more than one chance at an attack, you can't even counter attack.
Author:  Man of kent [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
I voted to keep them because I'd like to ask if i could have some of your liam rusells to use in my army.
5+ FF fast moving russes are a bit too specialist in my opinion,
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
With 80% of the 20 hands raised so far leaning towards keeping the sponsons, I think we can see which way the wind is blowing. :)


However, I will definitely be trying out a DK Tank Regiment list in the fullness of time that will have the sponsonless (25cm speed) russes.
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Looks like the purists wanting the iconic death korps tanks done properly are in the minority... pity!

Quote: 

I will definitely be trying out a DK Tank Regiment list in the fullness of time that will have the sponsonless (25cm speed) russes.


I definitely don’t think extra speed for the loss of sponsons is the way to go! – it might work as a game mechanism but it’s not realistic, consistent or true to the background: sponsons don’t add much to the weight of a massive big battle tank and there’s nothing from W40k suggesting a Russ without sponsons moves faster than one with.

The conqueror is represented badly in epic as is – it’s meant to be more accurate firing on the move than the Leman Russ not a faster vehicle – FW Imperial Armour 1 states a standard Leman Russ has a max speed of 35kph while a Conqueror has a max speed of 34kph.

Also Leman Russ chasis based vehicles like the Thunderer, Destroyer Tank Hunter and the Executioner all have no sponsons but move 20cm. It would be completely inconsistent and non-WYSIWYG for those sponsonless Leman Russ vehicles to move 20cm when these other ones somehow moved 25cm. As a tangent I notice a Destroyer Tank Hunter actually has a max speed of 50kph; perhaps the great capacitors for it’s gun can be channelled into it’s engine when not used for the gun and it the background text does talk about how it fires a shot or few from one position and then quickly change to a new firing position to avoid being spotted by enemy fire.

With or without sponsons I think all Leman Russ based vehicles should move 20cm in epic. I hadn’t considered a FF drop for Death Korps tanks but perhaps it would be appropriate. There again they do always seem to come with a pintle mounted heavy stubber which has as many shots as one of the two sponson heavy bolters so maybe it could have justification to stay FF4+.

Just make it the pay-back be a points drop instead please. Yes 20cm sponsless Russes will be poorer than their sponsoned cousins, especially if their FF should go down to FF5+ too, but cost them somewhat cheaper, so a player field more of them, more casually, as the background for them suggests and away you go.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Quote: 

The conqueror is represented badly in epic as is – it’s meant to be more accurate firing on the move than the Leman Russ not a faster vehicle – FW Imperial Armour 1 states a standard Leman Russ has a max speed of 35kph while a Conqueror has a max speed of 34kph.


Epic unit speeds do not strictly represent top speeds, but operational speeds.

So a Conqueror might not have a higher top speed, but it will have a higher operational speed in a battle situation, due to its greater ability to fire whilst moving.


Quote: 

Just make it the pay-back be a points drop instead please. Yes 20cm sponsless Russes will be poorer than their sponsoned cousins, especially if their FF should go down to FF5+ too, but cost them somewhat cheaper, so a player field more of them, more casually, as the background for them suggests and away you go.

I think we can leave spitballing for a DK Tank Regiment list until the new year. :)
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
For sure, but if you'll be including guidelines for fielding Leman Russ without sponsons, just not in the tournament list, then IMO this should be a small points drop rather than a speed increase.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Quote: (GlynG @ Nov. 08 2009, 13:49 )

For sure, but if you'll be including guidelines for fielding Leman Russ without sponsons, just not in the tournament list, then IMO this should be a small points drop rather than a speed increase.

For Siege, that's exactly what I intend to include, and your playtest experience is appreciated for finding a suitable points cost there.
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  The Death Korps Russ Sponson Conundrum
Goodo, so long as my opponent doesn't mind I will use these in all my DK games and see how it plays.
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