Tactical Command
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Epic: Siege
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=16824		 Page 1 of 8
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
As people didn't want v1.14 to be the final version, here's v1.15 :)


Based on the feedback and comments from the 1.14 thread, the changes to the Death Korps list are:

- DK Thudd Gun renamed Quad Launcher, given AP-only stats.
- Thudd Guns and Quad Launchers return to being Support Formations (as they were in V1.5).
- Increased Gorgon Upgrade for Companies by 25pts.
- Introduced Artillery Company.


=====

Download link for Epic Siege: Version 1.15 (unreliable link you will likely have to resume several times)

Download link for Death Korps playtesting (reference pages only): Version 1.15
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Whoever manages to download this, could they host it somewhere else, I've had to give up :(
Author:  asaura [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quick impressions:

- I've got a new word for spam: 4BP for 150 points.
Consider this:

400 Supremo
300 Inf
300 Inf
300 Inf
---- 1300 points; 4 companies
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
---- 1200 points; 8 support formations

That's 2500 in total

Add 2 x Entrechments (for 200 more)
and 2 x Thunderbolts (300 p, for even more activations and some air cover)

And ye'r done.

That's 16 barrage markers. Everything's garrisoned and in cover. Ugh.

---

I like the idea of having separate support formations, but 4 BP is supposed to cost. A lot.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: 

I've got a new word for spam

No need to be so snippy dude, the points cost can easily go up a bit. Sheesh.


Perhaps you could offer a constructive suggestion, like a new points cost or formation composition?

One of the suggestions put forward was to have the formation be something like: 4 Mortar units and 4 Death Korps infantry units.

Which I thought was kinda interesting...

...would this type of formation be preferred?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: (Hena @ Oct. 04 2009, 21:29 )

Umm... That Quad is way too good IMO. Why change from Thudd Gun. This isn't 40k.

You're right it's also underpriced, possibly as good as a Mortar now, so mayhaps they can cost the same now.

I changed it to help differentiate the Krieg forces from the Baran forces a little bit, and also to properly reflect what a Thudd Gun is (an anti-infantry weapon with a high rate of fire).

Quote: 

Any chance to manage to add the save values for trenches so one wouldn't need Swordwind.

I shall do this, for the likely very soon 1.16 update. :)
Author:  Moscovian [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: (asaura @ Oct. 04 2009, 15:47 )

Quick impressions:

- I've got a new word for spam: 4BP for 150 points.
Consider this:

400 Supremo
300 Inf
300 Inf
300 Inf
---- 1300 points; 4 companies
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
150 Mortars
---- 1200 points; 8 support formations

That's 2500 in total

Add 2 x Entrechments (for 200 more)
and 2 x Thunderbolts (300 p, for even more activations and some air cover)

And ye'r done.

That's 16 barrage markers. Everything's garrisoned and in cover. Ugh.

---

I like the idea of having separate support formations, but 4 BP is supposed to cost. A lot.

One first golance that does look rather hideous.  Take for example the cost various formations from other armies and you could probably ballpark it off those:

Whirlwinds (300 points) for 4BP
Night Spinners (175 points) for 3BP
Void Spinner (250 points) for 3BP
Griffons (100 points) for 3BP
Demiurg Mole Mortars (150 points) for 3BP
Decimator (225 points) for 3BP ... direct only I think
Perditor (150 points) for 2BP

At 200 points they would still be a steal and you could get 6 formations for 1200 points, translating into 12 barrage templates (a reduction of four from the previous example).  Price them at 250?  It is hard to say without looking at the stats (can't download them either... can you email them to me please?).
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
I like the extra infantry to represent the crew. I would model 2 crews on the base of the gun and 3 models on the base of the infantry for a total of 5 crew a gun can have.
And because the infantry has no ranged attack only lasguns their stats would match too :)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: (Hena @ Oct. 04 2009, 21:45 )

Umm ... a shot in Epic isn't like a one shot. I'd just put it to one shot instead of multiple. It's still a smallish gun. I think there is quite a lot of difference between Barans and Krieg that this isn't really needed. :smile:

A Quad Launcher in 40k puts out more surface area of template than a Basilisk, per turn... if we were really to follow the 40k rules it'd probably be a 1BP weapon like the Heavy Mortar, but I'm not that keen on following 40k.

What we have in 40k is a weapon with a very high rate of fire (4x missile launcher templates per turn, with a Strength of 6 instead of 4, meaning it wounds nearly everything on a 2+ in 40k), but which isn't strong enough to hurt vehicles... I think it's ok, and importantly provides the Thudd Gun with a weakness (not AT value at all).
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Actually the Heavy Mortar is Strength 6. The Quad-launcher is only Strength 5. This will hurt Humans, Eldar, Gaunts and Tau on 2+ and Marines, Orks and Necrons on 3+.
very difficult to destroy even the lightest armoured vehicle with Strength 5 as you need  to roll a 6 for armour peneteration. Even with Strength 6 you need a 5 to destroy a light armoured vehicle (Sentinel, Land Speeder, Vyper, etc) and a 6 to destroy something like a Rhino or Chimera from the front.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 04 2009, 21:51 )

What we have in 40k is a weapon with a very high rate of fire (4x missile launcher templates per turn, with a Strength of 6 instead of 4, meaning it wounds nearly everything on a 2+ in 40k), but which isn't strong enough to hurt vehicles... I think it's ok, and importantly provides the Thudd Gun with a weakness (not AT value at all).

But has a hideous reload time after 2 salvos? So where a basilisk would put say 5-6 rounds in the air a quad gun would be looking at 2 salvos, maybe 4.

Great for a semi rocket salvo of fie when you approach the target or they threaten the trench, poor for sustained firing.

Note I'm not saying slow fire, just saying fire over 15 minutes would be less than conventional artillery.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Oct. 04 2009, 22:01 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 04 2009, 21:51 )

What we have in 40k is a weapon with a very high rate of fire (4x missile launcher templates per turn, with a Strength of 6 instead of 4, meaning it wounds nearly everything on a 2+ in 40k), but which isn't strong enough to hurt vehicles... I think it's ok, and importantly provides the Thudd Gun with a weakness (not AT value at all).

But has a hideous reload time after 2 salvos? So where a basilisk would put say 5-6 rounds in the air a quad gun would be looking at 2 salvos, maybe 4.

Number of 5" templates fired by a Basilisk in a single 6-turn 40k game: 6
Number of 3" temlates fired be a Quad Launcher in a single 6-turn 40k game: 16


That includes skipping two turns whilst the Quad Launcher is reloaded.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Ok how about this:

Light Support Battery
Four Quad Lanchers or four Heavy Mortars, and four Death Korps Infantry units : 250 points.
May exchange Infantry units for Centaurs : Free.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Epic: Siege
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 04 2009, 22:07 )

Number of 5" templates fired by a Basilisk in a single 6-turn 40k game: 6
Number of 3" temlates fired be a Quad Launcher in a single 6-turn 40k game: 16

That includes skipping two turns whilst the Quad Launcher is reloaded.

So that is 2 salvos vs 4 rounds from the basilisk? (You shouldn't artificially ignore half the reload time.)

Incidentally I figure a Sustain to be the full turn firing (for firing and prep), an advance 2/3's (for firing and prep) and a double 1/3 of a turn (for firing and prep).

The above 2 salvos vs 4 rounds would to me be an advance or typical round of fire. So as each salvo is better than a basilisk shell you are looking at maybe 2/3's of the firepower and as a bassy will be getting 3-4 targets under the template typically, so 2xAP5+ could be an approximation. You will be sustaining so 2xAP4+ typically. Thats 50% more AP firepower than the thudd launcher (1xAP3+) with the same range presumably. Does that fit the model?
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