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Epic : Siege
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Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Epic: Siege, version 1.14.

Version 1.14


Hopefully this will be the final version, and we can print it in a few weeks after some final playtesting.


Changes for 1.14:

-Death Korps Manticore Platform deleted.
-Death Korps infantry lose their ranged attack (Dropped cost for both infantry companies by 50pts).
-Death Korps Fire Support unit added.
-Made ‘Mortar’ configuration Gorgon FF6+



The long road is nearly over...
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
I think losing the ranged attack on the army's core formation is a huge change that will make a big difference to how the lists plays, and will essentially negate most of the playtesting to date and require a lot longer period before printing than a few weeks.

I know it's more representative of the 40k rules, but it's a massive change to make at such a late stage.

For example, non-transported companies become almost worthless, as their main role was holding terrain on overwatch.

I seriously suggest you reconsider this move.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Nah I almost never put my infantry companies on Overwatch, and their range is so short they're typically only useful for self-defence when doing so.

I don't think the playtesting will be invalidated because they almost never shot at range anyway, Firefight is so much more appealing for the Death Korps.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
So your DKoK still refers to their Platoons as Companies.....or still uses Companies with ca 80% casualties :whistle:
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
A major change at the last minute before publishing is always going to be a bad idea.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to abstract the firing of the heavy weapons squads into the basic infantry, especially in an army with such large formations.

Remember also that the infantry company was deliberately overpriced to counter act several of the advantages elsewhere in the list, such as the cheap gorgons. By dropping the price this balance is thrown out of the window.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Speaking for the Barans I overwatch them when expecting air attack since my flaks so poor.

I second the sentiment that it seems a significant change though, unless you wanted to have a structure of infantry/support as part of the basic company. So same number of units, same firepower, just a different distribution?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Sep. 30 2009, 00:35 )

So your DKoK still refers to their Platoons as Companies.....or still uses Companies with ca 80% casualties :whistle:

Yup it uses the standard Epic convention of calling Platoons Companies.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
And i avoid this every time i make up a new IG army. They are Platoon sized formations so i call them Platoons dammit!  :laugh:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Sep. 30 2009, 00:37 )

Speaking for the Barans I overwatch them when expecting air attack since my flaks so poor.

I second the sentiment that it seems a significant change though, unless you wanted to have a structure of infantry/support as part of the basic company. So same number of units, same firepower, just a different distribution?

To be fair, you can add Fire Support units to get almost the same number of shots as the company had before this change (9 instead of 11), only with the added bonus of four more FF4+ units too, all for only 25pts more than the company cost yesterday.

So you can still do the Overwatch thing if you like, you just take the new Fire Support Upgrade.

So it's not a massive change, due to the Fire Support upgrade being added.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
And the other suggestions i made you didn't use? May i ask why besides they are a bit much perhabs?  :grinning:

I posted it here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y334792
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
You wanted bigger fire support batteries?

I didn't see the need to change them really, especially as going from 3 to 4 Thudd guns isn't all that much change, but going from 3 to 4 light mortars seriously up-powers the mortars, thus causing an imbalance that'd need to be fixed.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Yes but the DKoK uses 4 strong batteries. All other IG regiments only uses 3 strong batteries. It's one of the hallmarks of the DKoK according to FW (they said this in the FAQ to Vraks 1).

Actuallyhere is the posting with ALL the changes i suggested:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y334938

Ah i just quote it here:
Quote: 

- Rename Thudd Gun to Quad-Launcher. It DOES look different to the Baran Tudd Gun. The Baran Thudd Gun has one single barrel while the DK Quad-Launcher has 4 barrels.
- Make Heavy Mortar and Quad-Launcher Speed 0cm. They are immobile in Wh40k and need a Centaur to tow around. The Quad-Launchers special Pinning rule might justify Disrupt while the Heavy Mortars selection of special ammunition (expecially the Infernus shells)might justify Ignore Cover. Quad-Launcher should have 1BP Indirect Fire.
- Heavy Mortar and Quad-Launcher battery as Field Artillery Battery as its own (support) formation 4 units strong with the option to take 4 Centaurs.
- add Artillery Company (9 Earthsaker and/or Medusa Platforms or a mix of them with the option to take 9 Trojans). The DK is known to field huge amounts of artillery.
- add Heavy Artillery Company (9 Bombards). The DK is known to field huge amounts of artillery.
- change Regimental Company to Command Platoon (1 DK Supreme Commander unit and 4 Grenadier units with 5 Centaurs as transport option)
- change the DK Infantry Company to Infantry Platoon (1 DK Commander units and 12 DK Infantry units), no option for Gorgons, option to add 3 Heavy Support Units each armed with 2 Twin Heavy Stubbers, option to double all units in the formation (essentially taking two Platoons and merging them to one single formation)to represent the DK tenendcy to use massed Infantry assaults.
- add Assault Infantry Platoon (1 DK Commander unit and 9 DK Infantry units mounted in a Gorgon).
- remove the option to take a Gorgon for the Grenadiers. They will mainly use Centaurs because they are the DK rapid reaction force. They are either held in reserve or strike in advance of the main force. Gorgons are to slow for this.
- add a DeathRider Command unit as 13th unit to the Death Rider Company. same stats as DK Rough Rider unit but with Commander.




Author:  asaura [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Problems with no ranged attack on the infantry:

- they can do nothing when they fail to activate. With the 1.13 ranged attack, they could shoot when they failed to engage. This is important, since it has a big effect on retain init -situations.

- when you include the Fire Support upgrade in a company, the company no longer fits in Gorgons. This makes the Gorgon companies into pure assault things, only. It's more interesting to be able to do other things as well, even if the main purpose is still clear. For example, in 1.13, you can suprise an enemy by pulling a Turn1:March + Turn2:Sustained Fire instead of Turn1:Double + Turn2:Engage.

Typos in 1.14:

- DKoK infantry stats still include shooting attacks. Pages 23, 57.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
But thats exactly what the Death Korps does! They ARE an Assault Army.
The shooting stuff is only for defense (Heavy Stubbers) or to support an assault (Artillery)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Epic : Siege
Quote: (asaura @ Sep. 30 2009, 11:49 )

Problems with no ranged attack on the infantry:

- they can do nothing when they fail to activate. With the 1.13 ranged attack, they could shoot when they failed to engage. This is important, since it has a big effect on retain init -situations.

I don't regard this as a problem, as most DK companies will include some sort of attachment that grants them ranged shots, enough to lay some BM's.

Quote: 

- when you include the Fire Support upgrade in a company, the company no longer fits in Gorgons. This makes the Gorgon companies into pure assault things, only. It's more interesting to be able to do other things as well, even if the main purpose is still clear. For example, in 1.13, you can suprise an enemy by pulling a Turn1:March + Turn2:Sustained Fire instead of Turn1:Double + Turn2:Engage.

Again, I don't regard this as a problem, as the Gorgon's primary use should be as an assault carrier, not a more generalist battlefield transport.

Unless it's a heavily upgraded SC formation hiding at the back, Death Korps infantry generally shouldn't be sustaining fire IMO.

Quote: 

Typos in 1.14:

- DKoK infantry stats still include shooting attacks. Pages 23, 57.

Thanks I'll catch that.
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