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Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
Any formation with Hades Drills should gain the Teleport ability 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
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Representing the Hades Breaching Drill

 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:23 pm 
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I'd like to include Hades Breaching Drills in the next version of the Death Korps of Krieg army list, but I'm in a quandry as to how to include them.

Please debate, and/or vote.

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Is this the new replacement for the "Termite"?  If so, Tunnelers all the way!

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Yes, it's basically a Krieg Termite, on a Centaur hull.






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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 06 Mar. 2009, 13:25 )

Yes, it's basically a Krieg Termite, on a Centaur hull.

Yeah, definitely tunnelers... would be great to get that special rule more widely circulated.

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Nice model!


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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Tunneling rules work fairly easy and I have a lot of experience playing against them.  As long as they don't come with extras (like a breach charge that explodes and hits everyone on a AP5+/AT5+ within 15cm or other such nonsense) they aren't overpowered.

The nice thing about the tunnelling mechanics is that they are already established.

E&C, my question to you is are you planning on making the Hades Breaching Drill a unit, a war engine, or an upgrade?

Making them a war engine helps with the transport aspects but leaves you with the need for a model and unit stats.  Making them a unit forces the drill to remain with the formation and also leaves you with the need for a model and unit stats.  Making them a formation upgrade is the simplest solution, but leaves you with no models to play with (unless you just want to create one for the fun of it to mark where you breached the surface).

EDIT: ANy of these three will work just fine with the existing examples of tunneling in the only two lists that currently use the rules.  The only thing I think that is NECESSARY is to make sure to work with those Champs if you think the rules need to be modified.  I don't think they need changes, but I'm not in your head either (at least I don't think I am  :oo: )

Here are the classic rules from Armageddon as a reference:
This special rule can be used for tunnellers if
they are included in a scenario. Tunnellers are
set up on their own table edge before the battle
starts, at the same time that spacecraft are
deployed (see 4.0). Any units transported in the
tunneller are kept off table until it appears.
Write down the location where the tunneller
will surface at the same time and in the same
manner that you record the co-ordinates of a
drop zone (see 4.3.3). You must also secretly
record when the tunneller will surface. If it is
going to appear in your half of the table it may
arrive from the secondnd turn onwards. If it is
going to appear in the opposing half of the
table, it may arrive from turn three onwards. Set
up the tunneller at the start of the stated turn. It
and any units being transported may take an
action on the turn they appear.


Here are the Demiurg rules:
SPECIAL RULES
Tunnellers
Tunnellers are set up on their own table edge before the battle starts, after spacecraft are deployed (see 4.0). Any units transported in the tunnellers are kept off table until they surface. Write down the location where the tunneller will surface in the same manner that you record the co-ordinates of a drop zone (see 4.3.3).

Each tunneller formation must pass an activation test; if successful the tunneller models are removed from the table. It takes a tunneller formation 1 full turn to travel to any point on your table half and 2 full turns to travel to any point in your opponents table half.

Set up the tunnellers at the start of the turn when they surface as per the following rules; After the placing the first unit in a tunneller formation, center an orbital bombardment template over the model and place any other tunnellers in the same formation within that 12cm area. The troops carried in the tunnellers then must disembark within 5cm of their transport. The units being transported may take an action on the turn they appear.

If any enemy units are under the template, the Demiurg player must move the template the shortest distance needed to place the template without affecting any enemy models. Demiurg units may not be placed within any enemy zones of control.

Note: Tunneling requires you to deploy and activate the formation from Khthon cradles which are then removed from play at the end of the turn the tunnellers launch.
Tunnellers unlike drop pods remain on the table and count as Ruins as per 1.8.4 after the transported infantry disembark.

Important Note on Targeting TBM: While a Tunnel Boring Machine is mounted on its cradle they count as one unit. If an armour save is failed remove the TBM and the cradle, but assign only 1 BM per casualty. On-board infantry units save as per the normal rules for a destroyed transport. Any BM accumulated prior to the launching of TBM formations are removed after they launch.

Overwatch: Formations on Overwatch can declare attacks on disembarked TBM infantry immediately after the Strategy Phase on the turn they surface.

Squat version (very similar but interesting different clarifications):
Tunnellers

Tunnellers are similar to Drop Pods in the way they are deployed, however they do have some very significant differences so we present the rules for them here in full.

(1) Write down the coordinates, on a piece of paper, where the tunneller will emerge from below ground and the turn it will arrive. If the tunneller is going to appear in the friendly half of the table it can be slated to arrive from turn two onwards. If it is slated to arrive in the enemy half of the table it can arrive anywhere from turn three onward. For example you could write 45cms up from my table edge and 60cms in from the right edge, again facing from my table edge on turn three. The opponent is not made aware of this location, nor of the turn of arrival.

(2) On the turn of arrival the tunneller model is placed within 15cms of the location designated in the coordinates written down for the tunneller (They do not scatter). This is done at the start of the turn before teleports would be placed down. The tunneller, and the units it is carrying, are then treated like a normal formation from that point on, the tunneller cannot go back underground.

(3) If the tunneller is a Hellbore then it may seperate from the formation it is carrying because it is a WE transport and not a part of the carried formation. Termites and Moles ARE part of the formation they transported as must remain in coherancy with that formation, just like any other normal unit.

(4) You cannot hide that you are deploying Tunnellers, and you cannot hide the units being carried by the tunnellers, from your opponent. In fact you must inform your opponent you are using tunnellers, and show them to the opponent.




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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Tyranids now use tunneling as well, using the rule right out of the main rulebook.

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:54 pm 
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I think I'd like to make it a 10cm speed unit once it hits the surface.




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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 06 Mar. 2009, 08:54 )

I think I'd like to make it a 10cm speed unit once it hits the surface.

It's more ambitious from a modeling perspective but mechanically it is certainly workable.  From the size of it I don't see it being more than a DC2, and probably just a unit, although that would be more your expert field.

Tunneling rules will do you just fine then and you don't have to worry about playtesting some untried ideas.

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 06 Mar. 2009, 14:13 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 06 Mar. 2009, 08:54 )

I think I'd like to make it a 10cm speed unit once it hits the surface.

It's more ambitious from a modeling perspective but mechanically it is certainly workable.

And it also allows people to use their old Termites and such!

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Then it'll either need to be a WE with it's own activation or be part of the engineers formation and slow them down.

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:24 pm 
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I voted tunnelling, as I like it in both Squat and Tyranid army lists. I think tunnelling as a concept has lots of merit for Death Korps, since it is not something you decide in the last minute (like Terminators teleporting). The rules add some pre-consideration and would best mimic the work of building a secret tunnel. I would assume that it is an upgrade for Engineers.

As to whether it should be a unit or not, I think it is a toss-up. Both ideas have merits. Ease of game-play or the idea that the drill would be too important to just abandon.

/Fredmans

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Quote: (fredmans @ 06 Mar. 2009, 14:24 )

I would assume that it is an upgrade for Engineers.

Engineer formations will always have a Hades Breaching Drill.

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:42 pm 
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What are the Wh40k rules and stats for this thing?

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 Post subject: Representing the Hades Breaching Drill
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:58 pm 
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In 40k it is a unit that may transport a single squad to the surface, and has some close combat attacks.

I'm now coming down more on the side of a 'drop pod' type abstraction, using the Tunneler rules.

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