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Ragorie Gravborne
Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:35 am 
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Download Ragorie Gravborne version: 15-6-09 here.

Please have a gander and tear it apart.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:54 am 
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Looks like a cool variant - only problem that jumps out at me is the tbolt wing, its generally best to keep the flyer formations small otherwise they become too big an element of the game.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:34 am 
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The T'bolt wing was the stand out item to me on initial scan too.
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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:16 am 
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I'll add it to my playtest list.

The best I can achieve is 15 Thunderbolts, in 3 big-ass formations.
The standard IG list (and Gravborne) can achieve 12 in 6 smaller formations.
Is 3 more Thunderbolts at the cost of halving the activation count to much?

Is there evidence of aircraft being overpowered, especially in great numbers? The Orks for example can take huge formations of Fighta-Bommerz.
I've found Thunderbolts to be quite rare in armies, and Marauders to be extinct.

Not being able to contest or capture objectives, or have Zones of Control (to deny ground) seems like a huge balancing downside which discourages taking 1000pts of aircraft.

I can see 15 Thunderbolts flying around being incredibly annoying for the opponent, but that's nearly 1/3rd of the army that cannot stop them reaching and holding objectives, best they can do is harass the BTS.

Another critical point is the Gravborne have little or no artillery, and little or no AA. The aircraft must cover both these bases.

If you find the time, I'd enjoy Gravborne army lists (3k) that have tried to 'break' the Codex to extremes, so I can test them- perhaps with advice on how you'd play them.
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Mephiston
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:27 am 
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Well orks only have one AT and one AP/AA attack each. T'bolts have 2 of each and the wing would have 15 attacks against a LV/mixed target.

Do the gravborne infantry have to drop or can they deploy on the ground?
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dptdexys
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:25 pm 
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I'd like to echo the points about flyers,the fighters @ 5 strong would be a no brainer for CAP or Intercept duties.

On top of that both large flyer formations would be capable of flying through almost all ground flak to attack primary targets without fear of failure. Maybe thats the intention of them especially without cheap long range artillery in the list.To me it seems to take away from the tactical element of decision making when using these formations but as you have said Orks are capable of similar so testing will tell.

A few questions about the list.
Is there any limits on the Co. upgrades.
Should there be a limit on Spacecraft or does the list need the option of multiple ones.
Is the separate 1/3 limit on Navy and Titans intentional due to the Titans also counting for Attached formations.

Overall I really like the list and have been following the development from the Flame On forums .Great work so far  :D
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Interesting list. Like others I would be concerned as to the size of the aircraft wings, but testing can show how powerful these are.

Other points:

Demolishers are not shown as being able to be transported by Gravhawks but are an up-grade.

Would you really put Ogryns in chutes?

The thudd gun has different stats to the Seige Masters list, I would rather these were the same.

The background to the list is mounting attacks deep into enemy territory, I can see Warhounds scouting ahead to help but Warlords & Reavers even with the increased points cost.

Rough Riders?

The rules do not spell out who can planetfall & are they all done at once or is each formation activated with plantefall separately?

Again great list & I look forward to seeing this progress.

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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Do the gravborne infantry have to drop or can they deploy on the ground?


It's optional. Technically you can have nothing fall from the sky, representing the Gravborne after they've landed and are now desperately holding ground or marching for their objectives.

In practice it gives you a bunch of Steel Legion Infantry Companies but without the Shadowswords, Tank Companies, Mechanised Companies, Artillery, that makes Steel Legion IG tough.
I've never seen Guard Infantry Co's being the core of a competitive army, quite the contrary, I'm concerned the Gravborne list will be very hard to use.

You'll have to rely on Thudd Guns instead of Titan Killer shots, Mortars instead of Manticores, Thunderbolts instead of hidden Hydras.

The intended list design was to have a 'couple' of Gravborne drop, with a few already on the ground (most likely the Colonel- Supreme Commander).

I'd like to echo the points about flyers,the fighters @ 5 strong would be a no brainer for CAP or Intercept duties.

It's definitely noted. I may opt for a 3-strong Thunderbolt formation, dropping the 2 and 5. It's the Marauders that are intended to replace Artillery anyway.
I think 5xstrong Thunderbolts is powerful, but will have to test if it is overly so. On intercept they do look brutal, at least initially- inevitably they take losses.

On top of that both large flyer formations would be capable of flying through almost all ground flak to attack primary targets without fear of failure. Maybe thats the intention of them especially without cheap long range artillery in the list.

In a way, that's the intention for Marauders especially. To put it bluntly, how much flak do Manticore shells or Deathstrike Missiles have to fly through?
I still think they are fragile (Thunders on 6, Marauder on 4).
Your likely to get through turn 1, but take heavy losses if you fly through the middle of the opposing army (assuming most armies have some AA). As the game continues your formation deteriotes, if it shows up at all considering casualties mean modifiers to arrive.

To me it seems to take away from the tactical element of decision making when using these formations but as you have said Orks are capable of similar so testing will tell.


I personally would still hesitate to fly through the centre of an army with adequate AA cover.

Is there any limits on the Co. upgrades.

I took for granted the IG limitations, 1 of each type, 3 max. Will add this into the list.

Should there be a limit on Spacecraft or does the list need the option of multiple ones.


The Steel Legion list allows multiples, doesn't it? The Gravborne is more restrictive in that you can have 1 per Company, not 2. Or have I missed something in the Steel Legion restrictions?

If a player wants to go that route, I can see the Lance strikes helping to compensate for lack of Titan Killer shots, I think Spacecraft are inherently balanced, they have many weaknesses, much like aircraft it's more pts spent on units that can't contest or capture objectives or deny ground.

Fluff-wise, much like Gravborne need more aircraft, you can site the argument they are more closely tied to the Aircraft Carriers. Imperial Navy are the naval guns shelling the landing site, and the aircraft carriers flying them in.

If it proves too much of a crutch, I'll make it an Attached Formation.

Is the separate 1/3 limit on Navy and Titans intentional due to the Titans also counting for Attached formations.


I've always assumed they where separate limits, my mistake.
On considering it, I think I'll keep it the same. The Titans costing more and requiring 5 Gravborne Co's to take 1 is harsh enough, whilst the Aircraft are a key ingredient for AA and Artillery.

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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:28 pm 
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Demolishers are not shown as being able to be transported by Gravhawks but are an up-grade.


Demolitions is called Saboteurs in the Gravhawk entry, I knew the old name was still in the list somewhere but just couldn't find it. Thanks, it's been corrected.

An aside- what name do people like most Demolitions/Saboteurs/Sappers?

Would you really put Ogryns in chutes?


Hell yes, it'd be hilarious..oh serious answer. Historically, the parachute opens automatically on stepping out the side door, a grav-chute could be similarly automated to activate at a specific height- using pressure change?!
Game-wise, Gravborne are going to need to engage the enemy and get pretty close to grab or contest objectives, they need that punch and that resilience.

The thudd gun has different stats to the Seige Masters list, I would rather these were the same.


Bah, your right, just had a look at it. It sucks, hehe. It usurps the Mortars role. It's not even mounted.
It does say 'Thudd Guns (Krieg Pattern)', I could have a 'Thudd Guns (Ragorie Pattern)'.
I like my stats, they pack more of a punch and better AT, but must expose themselves to return fire.

The background to the list is mounting attacks deep into enemy territory, I can see Warhounds scouting ahead to help but Warlords & Reavers even with the increased points cost.

I'll admit I've never been a fan of giant robots, hence why I have a Tank Co as my BTS where a Reaver makes more practical sense.
To me if a house can sneak up on the enemy (a Warhound size), then a skyscraper can.

The requirements to get a Warlord or Reaver (or indeed Warhound) are to have 5 GravCompanies which even without upgrades is 1250pts that isn't doing much (as the upgrades really make GravCo useful), then to pay an inflated cost.
Your looking at 4000-5000pts to justify taking a Warlord and having a decent Gravborne list next to it- it's entirely plausible they're holding that Bridge Too Far and the armoured cavalry actually do arrive in time (which is why you can squeeze in a Tank or Mech Co or Titan but it's much rarer than Steel Legion).

Perhaps making Warhounds more easily accessible, as I understand they are supposed to be faster, sneakier and 'scoutier', but I think they'd become even more of a crutch for Gravborne than they are for Space Marines.

Rough Riders?

Horses in parachutes?

The rules do not spell out who can planetfall & are they all done at once or is each formation activated with plantefall separately?

Hmm, I'd hope it was clear, here's the rules at present, perhaps we could edit them:

-Who Can planetfall?
"Transport: May carry one Gravborne Company including all of its upgrades.

Planetfall: All units transported by a Gravdrop have the Planetfall ability "

-When activated?
"A Gravdrop is very similar to a Spacecraft in that it must arrive on a set turn and be declared before the game. The exception is that a Gravdrop can arrive on a turn even if a Spacecraft (friend or foe) has already chosen that turn, and vice versa. Only one friendly Gravdrop can arrive per turn."

So it's only the Gravborne Companies, all units in them have Planetfall if they choose to Gravdrop, and they arrive like Spacecraft- i.e. roll a 'Gravdrop' Spacecraft activation, deploy them, they then need to retain or activate later to do anything. I'll clarify this in the rules.

Originally there was the option for 3 Gravborne Companies to land each turn, all landing as one Spacecraft action but plotted individually. This proved too horrific, as you can encircle enemy, set-up instant crossfires, generally swamp an area turn 3, etc.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Quote: (Jeridian @ 17 Jun. 2009, 15:28 )

Rough Riders?


Horses in parachutes?

:vD

I was more thinking of a support formation - not grav dropping.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:05 am 
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Note tha tper army list mutliple spaceships can be choosen but per core rules only one can be activated for the entire game.




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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:36 am 
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Page reference please, all I can find is you can only have one Spacecraft on the battlefield per turn.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:43 am 
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Ok it's slightly different than i remembered:

Page 53, 2nd paragraph:

4.3. SPACECRAFT
The spacecraft of the 41st Millenium are huge. Even a small Imperial Lunar class Cruiser would be over 5 metres long if we made an Epic scale model of it. Because of this neither side is allowed to include more than one spacecraft in their army.





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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:59 am 
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That's a kick in the pants.

Spacecraft are big is the excuse, well, space is bigger...


This restriction applies to all armies, so it'll apply to Gravborne too in that case.
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