Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

New Elysians List Released

 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:07 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1963
Location: South Yorkshire
Quote: (Steve54 @ 17 Feb. 2009, 07:06 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 16 Feb. 2009, 23:06 )

If I were doing a 'TRC powergamed' army list, at first sight this cries "teleported popcorn" to me, so have you tried something like:-

Please no more TRC style theoryhammer - its already responsible for the loss of droppods for scouts.

I agree, test and forget the theory hammer.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
I'm a bit puizzled abpout the M;arauder Destroyer stats.
Haven`t we agreed about this stats?

Marauder Destroyer     2 for 375
Bomber
Armour 4+
3x Twin-linked Autocannon  - 30cm   AP4+/AT5+    Fxf
2x Underwing Rocket Barrage - 30cm AT3+    Fxf
Twin Heavy Bolters - 15cm   AA5+
Twin Assault Cannon - 15cm AA4+       Rear Arc

From this Thread? http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 74;t=14641

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
Hi, it seems we have a shared interest in Guardsmen falling from the sky.

I've started work (literally first draft, ideas) on my own Drop Troops style list, purely for personal use and can offer humble suggestions (in no way intended to parasitically leach advice from your constructive audience,  :devil: ).

We have come to similar conclusions about a Drop Troops list being about Guard Infantry 'appearing' about the battlefield, about the lack of heavy armour being the downside vital in making them balanced compared to Steel Legion.

How we've gone about it game-wise differs.


I've introduced 'Grav-Drops', essentially a 'Spacecraft' (you plot the turn they fly over, etc) that allows up to 3 Drop Trooper Companies to Planetfall.

Fluff-wise- a Parachute drop of the size of Companies is pre-planned, requiring pre-prepared drop sites, rallying points, etc.

Game-wise- it gives the Guard player the ability to arrive anywhere on the board, but without the perhaps overpowering ability to choose whenever and wherever as demands. It means the Guard Paratrooper player must have a working plan before landing, rather than just through formations about reactively.

I think it offsets the inherent advantage of arriving when and where you want on the board.


I've also included 'glider companies' or Dropcraft Companies.

Dropcraft 5+ RA. Transport: 4. Bomber. CC 6 FF 6. Heavy bolter 30cm AP5/AA6.

Dropcraft Company is 12 IG. 1 Command. 4 Dropcraft.
-Once landed the Dropcraft cannot take off.

Ideally, once your Drop Trooper Companies have Planetfalled, your Dropcraft Companies fly in to support the attack. The Dropcraft are remarkably stubborn, but once down are pretty much static Heavy Bolter mounts.

We have Demo Charges in common, though I've made them a separate unit:

Sappers- Save -. CC 5+. FF 6. Demo-Charge- 15cm MW3+, One Shot.
4 for 75pts as upgrade.

I figured with a lack of heavy armour, there's a lack of Titan Killer, and MW's to deal with heavy armour- so I essentially 'threw them a bone'. A very short-ranged, limited bone.


Hopefully I've given some new ideas, as your list has to me- I've not considered other versions of Aircraft, or more usage of Valkyries for example.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5477
Location: London, UK
My apologies, I misread the list combining the three upgrades and the two support companies. A revised version of that "popcorn" list would provide 6x Drop Companies (including the Regimental HQ), 12x sentinals and still have 230 spare (for upgrades). So ~18 teleporting formations that arrive 'up close and personal'.

Actually, I think the solution is quite simple; remove teleport from the sentinels. This brings them back to a reasonable power level due to their reduced range and keeps the costs unchanged. It also make the list quite elegant; while the Drop companies can both teleport and use Valkyries, the Drop company upgrades and Support companies can either teleport or have valkyries, which makes for some interesting list choices.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6397
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Removing the 'drop' from the Drop Sentinels is silly IMO, not to mention against the fluff.  Both troops and sentinels can drop on grav chutes.

Now I can't find a thing on Support Sentinels anywhere :glare: .  It is possible that they are in the Taros book, but I don't have access to such a tome (too rich for my blood these days).  If it turns out there isn't anything documenting Support Sentinels as coming in on Grav Chutes then you can limit their deployment by Valkyrie.  I'm not convinced this limitation is necessary, but I throw it out as food for thought.

I've introduced 'Grav-Drops', essentially a 'Spacecraft' (you plot the turn they fly over, etc) that allows up to 3 Drop Trooper Companies to Planetfall.

Fluff-wise- a Parachute drop of the size of Companies is pre-planned, requiring pre-prepared drop sites, rallying points, etc.


I actually like this idea and suggested it to Honda about two years ago when I initially found the Elysian list.  I believe he passed on the idea, but didn't axe it completely.  The word was then what it is now: playtest, then discuss.  While I must say your idea sounds better to me (pre-plotting, scatters, etc.), I'd like to give Honda's ideas a fair shake first.  The one thing I don't want the Elysians to turn into is a IG version of the Necrons though; we should keep the planetfalling idea on standby if teleporting proves too powerful.

I'm not complaining, but I do believe you chaps could work on your timing just a bit.

Sorry, hombre.  I've been a bit scattered myself these days, but you have my attention now.  Once I start on a project I typically don't let go.  You might get sick of seeing my batreps and comments by Spring. :))

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:09 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote: (dptdexys @ 17 Feb. 2009, 08:07 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 17 Feb. 2009, 07:06 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 16 Feb. 2009, 23:06 )

If I were doing a 'TRC powergamed' army list, at first sight this cries "teleported popcorn" to me, so have you tried something like:-

Please no more TRC style theoryhammer - its already responsible for the loss of droppods for scouts.

I agree, test and forget the theory hammer.

Well, gee whiz, I guess it's a good thing that testing is exactly what Ginger suggested.  You might even note that he asked "have you tried something like..." to see if it had been tested.

That's what "theoryhammer" is good for - prioritizing testing.




_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6397
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Elysians use 2 different types.  The Support Sentiel doesn't usually drop, and is armed with a rocket or missile pod and sensor equipment which acts as a beacon to help the elysians drop in the right place.


Posted by Zombocom in this thread.

Honda, this may be something you want to consider, if for no other reason than to have the list match the fluff.  I don't think it would hamper the army too much.

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
I actually like this idea and suggested it to Honda about two years ago when I initially found the Elysian list.  I believe he passed on the idea, but didn't axe it completely.


I had a feeling this would be true. It's why I hesitate to suggest anything here, it's already been suggested and refuted years before my arrival.

Good luck, and I'd also like to see Honda's list tested to see how Teleport does (I belief the Blast Marker effect of Teleport may become troublesome, but the ability to plop cheap, objective grabbing formations down in the last turn anywhere may compensate).

Another suggestion (no doubt refuted) I've done is have larger formations of Thunderbolts/Marauders than the Steel Legion list, at discount costs.
From memory-

2 Thunderbolts- 100pts
5 Thunderbolts- 250pts

2 Marauders- 200pts
5 Marauders- 500pts

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:49 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6397
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Quote: (Jeridian @ 17 Feb. 2009, 09:41 )

I actually like this idea and suggested it to Honda about two years ago when I initially found the Elysian list.  I believe he passed on the idea, but didn't axe it completely.


I had a feeling this would be true. It's why I hesitate to suggest anything here, it's already been suggested and refuted years before my arrival.

I don't think it was 'refuted' - just shelved.  IMO your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.  As long as you don't beat everyone over the head with it there is nothing wrong with posting your ideas.  That's why we have an open forum for public discussion!

It would be great to see a batrep from you (pics are always helpful) on your own list and how the game worked.  You never know... It might bring about change on this list.

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
A couple of quick comments because I am up to my ears in auditors (it's that time of year),

1. Black Legion: You are correct on the MD and that was my bad. While I was updating the entry, I only did the armaments part.

2. Jeridian: A great while back, as I was looking for the design concept for the Elysians, I polled other "authors" about how they might approach the list. Your idea came up quite often. I chose not to take that approach because it reflects a more WW II Parachute company concept vs. Airmobile. I think the latter more accurately reflects how the Elysians operate.

Neither is bad and if someone were so inclined to do something for like the Harakoni Warhawks, maybe that would be a distinguishing characteristic, but this list is intended to model the Elysians (good and bad) as FW depicts them in IA3.

3. Teleporting Sentinels: I will confirm this tonight, but I am pretty sure that all units in the Elysian list may either choose to be transported by a Valkyrie or may teleport, reflecting the use of grav chutes. The Sentinels do have grav chutes on them. I know, because I need to model them on my 40K scale Sentinels.

Now, if in playtesting it turns out that these units are undercosted, no big deal, we'll fix that.

I would also like to point out something that seems to be continually left out when players focus on the capabilities and almighty powers of Teleport. Remember that each formation that teleports has to roll for BMs upon landing. Keep in mind the downside of starting your turn with N blast markers on your formation.

4. Mosc - The leaving out of Valkyrie transport for upgrades is intentional. When Elysians Reloaded list development kicked off again (remember, you started this  :cool: ), there were a number of playtests that pointed out how the extra Valkyries provided way too much firepower to those formations and that costing them appropriately wasn't working very well either.

The suggestion by either Mark_logue or Onyx (not sure exactly who without checking) was to allow the smaller formations to be completely airmobile (i.e. carried in Valkyries), but the larger to either be all Teleport OR forcing the add ons to walk.

So, you can either 1) make fairly large Drop companies, but they will either be really slow and tied to the foot sloggers or 2) they all Teleport, in which case you have a very large formation that has a pretty decent chance of receiving BMs when it lands. BMs are the trade off for very high mobility.

What has not been looked at is Option 1, where the attached Valks basically operate as dedicated air support. I see some potential there, even though that isn't the intent of the list. If that turns out to be some sort of loop hole that we want closed, then I'll modify the list so that you can only have small transported formations or large air dropped formations.

Thanx all for the feedback.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6397
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Mosc - The leaving out of Valkyrie transport for upgrades is intentional


I figured as much and it is probably a wise decision.  Thanks for the info.

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
It would be great to see a batrep from you (pics are always helpful) on your own list and how the game worked.  You never know... It might bring about change on this list.


Aye, to find a willing victim...

Jeridian: A great while back, as I was looking for the design concept for the Elysians, I polled other "authors" about how they might approach the list. Your idea came up quite often. I chose not to take that approach because it reflects a more WW II Parachute company concept vs. Airmobile. I think the latter more accurately reflects how the Elysians operate.

Neither is bad and if someone were so inclined to do something for like the Harakoni Warhawks, maybe that would be a distinguishing characteristic, but this list is intended to model the Elysians (good and bad) as FW depicts them in IA3.


Aye, I can see what your getting at. Your list is more akin to Vietnam style Air Cavalry- with Valkyrie being Huey. Whereas my approach does indeed have a more WWII aspect of a sky full of parachutes, lumbering transport planes and Gliders.

It's encouraging to think the two styles are different enough that my list won't just be a poor imitation of yours.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20871
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Has it been considered that perhaps the teleporting/appearing approach isn't the best representation?

after all, Storm Troopers can teleport on in 40k, but at Epic scale they have their Valkyries with them at all times.

Just a thought from a guy who owns an Elysian army in 40k scale.  :cool:

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Has it been considered that perhaps the teleporting/appearing approach isn't the best representation?


I disagree. If we look at the description of Teleportation in the Epic rules, it does cover how the Elysians deploy into a battle.

This subject has been debated many times before. Until someone presents playtest evidence demonstrating that Teleport provides a definable advantage over other lists, then Teleport is the rule that will be used.

...And I too have an Elysian army in 40K that I play. That's what got me into this mess. :p

However, just so we are clear, in 40K, the Elysians use Deep Strike or they come in on Valkyries.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: New Elysians List Released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1963
Location: South Yorkshire
Should the Regimental HQ be limited to 0-1.

How many commissars are allowed 2d6 or 1 per 500 points.

Do the Storm troopers need to have teleport as they come with Valkyries attached which don't have teleport and it is unlikely anyone would drop the valkyries to deploy storm troopers at 350.

I like the look of this list and will try to get a few games with it after FSA at the end of February.

In fact,Gavin (Ginger) do you fancy giving them a try on the Sunday Gaming day.I have enough infantry and quite a few sentinels plus we can proxy what we don't have.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net