Opps. It should be:
Autocannon Phalanx 45cm AP2+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Arc
Its not double its triple twin-linked so to speak
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| Elysian Aircraft http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=14641 |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
Honda is still working on his Elysian list trying to get things together. He like the thread I out together in the Tau forum on the Air Caste units and wanted to try a similar thing with the Elysians. Being a drop company, I would think that Aircraft are going to be an important part of operations for the Elysians. Honda liked the idea of exploring some of the other Imperial aircraft options outside of the Thunderbolt and basic Marauder. Here are some starting stats we could work with: Lightning Fighter Armour 6+ Lightning Autocannon - 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fxf Twin Lascannon - 30cm AT4+/AA5+ Fxf The basic Lightning is actually kind of tough to transition to Epic as a pure Fighter as FW decided it should have a Long-Barreled Autocannon for some reason. I don't think anyone believes Fighter should be flying around with that kind of rage in Epic. If we just treat it like a norm AC though, it seems to work out fine, being fairly comparable to the Thunderbolt in firepower. This was tricky though and there may be abtter way to handle it. Lightning Strike Fighter/Bomber Armour 6+ Twin Lascannon - 30cm AT4+/AA5+ Fxf Hellstrike Missiles - 45cm 2x AT5+ Fxf The Lightning Strike on the other hand is a piece of cake. It is pretty much a pure Tank Hunter with some AA ability, this will I think fill a nice role in the Elysian forces. It has more Air to Ground shots than other fighters, but at the cost of having lessened AA ability. In the case of both Lightnings I lowered the range on the Lascannons to 30cm in order to be consistent with the typical range of weapons on fighters. If that causes a sonsistency issue, perhaps they could be called snub-nosed autocannons. Marauder Destroyer Bomber Armour 4+ 3x Twin Autocannons - 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Fxf Twin Heavy Bolters - 15cm AA5+ Twin Assault Cannon - AA4+ Rear Arc Hellstrike Missiles - 45cm 2x AT5+ Ok, this seems like it is much meaner than a basic Marauder at first glance. It has potentially 5 shots per plane at ground formations. However, if a Marauder can catch 3 models in its Bomb Template it has 4 shots per plane. Both have similar roles to hit with their firepower. The Marauder Destroyer is a bit better protected from fighter with its Assault Cannons, but I think this can be fairly priced and it will not be game breaking. Marauder Colossus Bomber Armour 4+ Twin Heavy Bolter - 15cm AA5+ Twin Heavy Bolter - 15cm AA5+ Rear Arc Colossus Bomb 15cm 3BP MW, Orbital Template, One Shot This is more my idea than Honda's and would be a way for the Elysians to have some slightly heavier firepower. In concept the Colossus Bomb has identical firepower to the Orbital Barrage of a Lunar Cruiser. The Lunar has to pre-choose its time and place of firing, where as this unit would be able to pick its target. Of course, there is no way to stop a Lunar, whereas this can be shot down. In some ways I think this would be the Elysians analog of the Deathstrike Missile. One per army, it flies out, does its thing and flies away. And I know that the Deathstrike is obnoxious, but again, this at least could be countered. This would give the Elysians a unique set of aircraft that fill some roles in the army and seem to fit with the drop trooper playstyle. It was also suggested in a past thread that the Elysians could use the Gothic Cruiser to help w/ anit-titan fiepower and that would be a great though coupled with the Colossus. I am sure Honda will chip in here later and fill in on his reasonings and help get the discussion rolling. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
If you decrease the range of the Lascannons/Autocannon on the Lightnings i would guve them Forward Arc instead of Fixed Forward Arc. Because usually you subtract -15cm from an AA-capable weapon if its firing arc is greater than Fixed Forward Arc. I'ma lso not so keen on the three Autocannon for the Marauder Destroyer. They are fixed in place and can't rotate so will fire in unison at the same target. How about this: Autocannon Phalanx 45cm AP3+/AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc And the Twin Assault Cannons should have 15cm range. |
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| Author: | Soren [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
6 Autocannons are a potential devastating amount of Firepower and sure more worth than AP3+. Else the Destroyer lacks the bomb layout to generate some hits. Cutting down his few shots further will make him rather useless. (3 ground attack shots, two hellstrikes and one autocannon, are rather poor for a dedicated bomber I think) |
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| Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
It really should be something like 3x AP4+/AT5+. As said, if a Marauder Bomber catches 3x units in the template (infantry bunched around their transports, anyone?), there's 4 shots per plane from a basic Marauder. The destroyer is a little better as a ground attack plane for point targets (think A10 warthog) compared to a Marauder hitting area targets. Also, it's really easy to "wag the tail" of an airplane and get gunfire into a huge beaten zone. Also, twin lascannon are 45cm AT4+/AA4+ on the Marauder, so they really should at least be AA4+ for the Lightnings. Just need to remember that FIGHTERS need to be 50% undergunned to follow the SG precedent, at least if you're translating from FW 40k stats to Epic. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
Opps. It should be: Autocannon Phalanx 45cm AP2+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Arc Its not double its triple twin-linked so to speak
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| Author: | Soren [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 23 Jan. 2009, 01:52 ) Opps. It should be: Autocannon Phalanx 45cm AP2+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Arc Its not double its triple twin-linked so to speak nevertheless it results in too few shots..... |
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| Author: | Honda [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
I've been monitoring so far and appreciate the comments. The goal is to get the aircraft sorted out so that we can freeze the code, and then proceed with a testing period. Although, I don't want to steer the results or create an imbalance, when looking at the aircraft try to keep in mind: 1. The Elysians have no artillery except for light mortar units (more for placing a blast marker) 2. The Elysians do not have access to Titans or Super heavy vehicles This is by design. As stated in the fluff, the Elysians are very dependent on their air support, so it should be effective. However, it can not be overpowering (i.e. no titans so now we have super aircraft). Part of the challenge in playing Elysians is the fact that you don't necessarily have a good solution for common problems like other lists. Cheers, |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
I think we also need to keep in mind these units might be used in other IG lists, so they need to be balanced compared to other air units, not just the Elysian list. If the Elysians need more air power, then allow them larger formations, better discounts, or a higher percentage of aircraft allotted. 45cm tends to be fairly uncommon for aircraft as far as I know and most ranges fall in between 15cm-30cm, but I suppose for a bomber it would be okay. And I think having the unit have too few shots is a good place to start. Better than too many. 
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| Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
Even the baseline Marauder has a 45cm attack (the lascannons in the nose of the plane). I'm not sure I'd want to see the entire nose battery firing 45cm (even the Tau don't have that reach!), but we all know that lascannons and autocannons have the same range. If 3x AP4+/AT5+ (comparable to dropping a bomb on someone), plus 2x AT5+ shots is "too many" then we've got an impasse. That's only 1 shot more than a Marauder that caught 3 units in the blast template, but more specifically anti-tank than a Marauder. 2x AT5+ is a 55% chance of one hit, compared to a basic Marauder's AT4+, but only a 11% chance of 2 hits (in addition to the 55% of 1 hit, so 66% chance total). The real challenge here is that a Destroyer doesn't have to enter most flak envelopes: it can fire at max range at the edges of formations and avoid the Hydra or flakkwagon in the center. Only Marines and Tau have the reach to deal with 45cm air-to-ground attacks, with their 60cm AA. |
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| Author: | vanvlak [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
What about the Aquila? |
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| Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
I don't think that the Elysians used Aquilas, van. That's a Navy VIP shuttle, not a Tactical Wing transport like Valkyries. besides, it's only got a transport of 1 (maybe 2), and a heavy bolter. |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
Unless Honda has changed his mind, I don't believe the Aquila or the Arvus lighter will see the Elysian list. Lord Inquisitor is talking about putting the Aquila in the Inquisition and I'd really like to see the Arvus make it into one of the other lists like the Cadians. |
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| Author: | Honda [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
Moscovian is correct about the Arvus and the Aquila. The standard transport vehicle for the Elysians is the Valkyrie, so that is all you are going to see. You can always add those vehicles for scenario specific reasons, but they will not be part of this list. Regarding the Marauder Destroyer ranges, our job is to uncover how the unit needs to be stat'd. If 3 x AP4/AT5 "seems" to be the right number of shots, then let's look at adjusting the range of the weapons (i.e. to 30 cms) to make it fit. That would leave the Hellstrikes at 45cms and maybe that is more palatable. If that weapons package looks reasonable, then we can start looking at cost. As Shmitty stated earlier, the MD is a beast to fit in because it does carry so much firepower...and from personal experience in 40K, it is brutal. However, we do have a few variables we can fiddle with to get it right sized. I also want us to approach the issue from the perspective that it is easier to loosen restrictions on a unit, then it is to tighten them. So if the plane comes in a little weak the first go around we can always slide it up a bit. Regarding the possibility that these aircraft may be used in other lists...yes, we should be somewhat cognizant of that, but I don't want that to be the over-arching driver of the stats. It would be very easy to tone it down to the point where it's never used in this list because of how it might interact with a SL list. I don't want this list to be compromised by future efforts that we have no control over. So, let's do keep that in the back of our mind, but it doesn't need to dominate the discussion. Cheers, |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
As ever, I would recommend that weapon ranges be conservative to fall in line with other races and general air capability. Fighters and Fighter Bombers weapon ranges should be no more than 30cms max, Bombers may have a limited capability at 45cm. AA weapons will normally be 15cm and occasionally 30cm. That said, the biggest problem we will face here is finding a way to make this work as intended without being totally over-powered. The issue with all air-power is the game is designed as a ground battle. Air-power is difficult to counter effectively, so the difference between under-powered and over-powered is very slender. On this note, is there anything in the 'fluff' about the Elysians calling in airstrikes; using forward observers or target designation devices? If so, we could artificially restrict the airpower a little by linking air attacks to nearby ground specialists (the equivalent to Tau Markerlight and Guided missiles). Just a thought |
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| Author: | Honda [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Elysian Aircraft |
On this note, is there anything in the 'fluff' about the Elysians calling in airstrikes; using forward observers or target designation devices? If so, we could artificially restrict the airpower a little by linking air attacks to nearby ground specialists (the equivalent to Tau Markerlight and Guided missiles). The fluff does mention that they are very dependent on their air support. A lot of their heavy firepower is provided by their dedicated air support via Vultures, but even so, they are still dependent on the Imperial Navy to help cover their rear ends. I would prefer to not introduce a Tau-like mechanism for this list. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's warranted at this point. I think fielding the MD is going to be challenging in that it's a heavy hitter that everyone will be gunning for. After all, when it comes down to "scary" firepower, the Elysians only have so many choices. For this first cut, I'm Ok with it being a tad expensive as I don't want it to be an obvious choice everytime you field the list. So, let's work on the amount of firepower that makes sense, then cost it, stand back and see if it looks right, then trim/adjust where needed. I think we can do that without introducing any special rules. Cheers, |
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