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Current Death Korps
scarik
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:39 pm 
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E&C noted that the other Death Korps was a necro which I missed entirely.

Go, go gadget reading comp...

So let's get current, shall we?

I know very little of the Korps' background other than they wear masks and are Legion.

Formations of 20 certainly illustrate that, but with the list in E&C's sig they are pretty awful compared to Steel Legion guard and cost just as much.

Basic Company in DK:
350 for 19 guard + 1 commander with a 30cm AP5 weapon for every second unit
Company + Platoon in SL:
350 for 18 guard + 1 commander with 45cm AP5/AT6 weapons for every second unit

Those Kreig boys need to be cheaper. Since they can't engage tanks nor be as proactive with them they need something better.

I like the more SHTs, but really I think all IG need to have all 5 available or have only 2 or 3, since there aren't even 5 niches to fill.

Deathstrike Silo is a cool idea.

The 0 move artillery is way too cheap, self-propelled artillery hardly ever moves anyway, so spending fewer points for a larger formation that can actually assault is a nono.

Either SHT companies should be Core choices or the option should be singles only.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:10 pm 
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Quote: (scarik @ 23 Aug. 2008, 22:39 )

I know very little of the Korps' background other than they wear masks and are Legion.

They are an offensive-themed Siege army list, as opposed to the Baran Siegemasters defensive-style list.

Formations of 20 certainly illustrate that, but with the list in E&C's sig they are pretty awful compared to Steel Legion guard and cost just as much.

Basic Company in DK:
350 for 19 guard + 1 commander with a 30cm AP5 weapon for every second unit
Company + Platoon in SL:
350 for 18 guard + 1 commander with 45cm AP5/AT6 weapons for every second unit

Those Kreig boys need to be cheaper. Since they can't engage tanks nor be as proactive with them they need something better.


You missed the fact that the Krieg infantry have a CC stat of 5+, to represent their exceptional (For Guardsmen) CC abilities.

They also have the Gorgon and the Trenchworks available as (Fairly cheap) Upgrades, which compensates for their initially high-seeming points cost.

I like the more SHTs, but really I think all IG need to have all 5 available or have only 2 or 3, since there aren't even 5 niches to fill.

The 4 (5) niches:

- Baneblade : All-rounder
- Shadowsword : Anti-Titan
- Stormsword : Anti-Infantry
- Stormblade : Anti-Armour
(- Stormhammer : Short-range firepower)


The 0 move artillery is way too cheap, self-propelled artillery hardly ever moves anyway, so spending fewer points for a larger formation that can actually assault is a nono.

Bearing in mind the (Intentionally) slightly overpriced Core formations, I believe that the artillery is not too cheap.

The Krieg army list is costed so that you generally have a similar number of activations to most other army lists out there.

Either SHT companies should be Core choices or the option should be singles only.
Why?
The Baran Siegemasters also have a 'Company' as a Support Formation.




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scarik
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:08 am 
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I didn't miss them having CC5+, I just don't find it to be a huge advantage.

The Elysians have it too, and it does help, but it helps as a defenseive measure when swarmed by Orks, I certainly never want to get into CC.

Walking IG aren't gonna get to use that CC offensively against many people vulnerable to it. Add that they have relatively expensive Infantry companies that can't shoot tanks and they are clearly giving a point advantage to the enemy.

Bearing in mind the (Intentionally) slightly overpriced Core formations, I believe that the artillery is not too cheap.


Willfully getting the points wrong on one unit doesn't really help here. The artillery would be cheap even if they were the same cost with transport as self-propelled since they have more bodies to take damage and can more easily support an assault.

I'll relent on the SHT organization, but I feel that there aren't really more than 3 niches.

The Baneblade may be and 'all-rounder' but its a second rate one when you can use a Stormhammer (minervans) or Stormblade (DK and Minervans). Both other SHTs are just better at everything the Baneblade is trying to do. 1 shot out to 75cm is paltry and certainly not as good as 1 MW at 60 (2 slow firing technically).

The Stormblade is also a good tank to put in a Shadowsword Company as a hedge against being Assaulted, its great at medium range shooting, can still lay out MW hits and its great in close. Clear candidate for a Commissar.

Also, the list doesn't explicitly forbid buying Upgrades and then putting them in Support Companies. It doesn't have the Minervan problem of allowing SHT Companies to Garrison (since Minervans aren't limited to one of each upgrade), but it does allow Macharius to Garrison, as well as fielding 9 tank Russ Squadrons.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:21 am 
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Quote: (scarik @ 24 Aug. 2008, 01:08 )

I didn't miss them having CC5+, I just don't find it to be a huge advantage.

It's not a huge advantage, but it does help compensate for the loss of the Autocannons.

Bearing in mind the (Intentionally) slightly overpriced Core formations, I believe that the artillery is not too cheap.


Willfully getting the points wrong on one unit doesn't really help here.

The points costs are internally balanced within the context of this army list... it's not "wrong" to try and find a different balance point than the Steel Legion army list...

The artillery would be cheap even if they were the same cost with transport as self-propelled since they have more bodies to take damage and can more easily support an assault.

Did you note that the static gun platforms are Light Vehicles?

They're made to be more vulnerable (As well as given speed 0) to compensate for their drop in cost.

...the list doesn't explicitly forbid buying Upgrades and then putting them in Support Companies.

I'll make sure that the next version does.

It doesn't have the Minervan problem of allowing SHT Companies to Garrison (since Minervans aren't limited to one of each upgrade), but it does allow Macharius to Garrison, as well as fielding 9 tank Russ Squadrons.

How can Machariuses Garrison?

How can you field 9 Russ tanks in a single squadron (Without knowingly cheating and exploiting an ambiguously-worded (Although perfectly clear in the context of Epic) sentence)?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:21 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 24 Aug. 2008, 06:22 )

I still think that the Deathstrike silo in nonsensical in the Krieg list. They don't make a ICBM silo when they are attacking force ... oh well.

Like the Steel Legion Deathstrikes, you can assume that either:

- The distance-abstraction of Epic means that it's really 500 miles behind the front line.

or

- An enemy raid has pushed deep into the Death Korps' territory.

However I need to ask. Why not allow Field Artillery company as in IA5 p. 98? That would have 4 Heavy Mortars and 8 Thudd Guns (or should they be called Quad Launchers :smile:) with one unit as HQ (the rest are "included" in each battery to make it more sensical looking on field). Then allow it to have Centaur and Trojans upgrade to make it mobile if wanted.


I'll have a look and see if it'll fit.

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scarik
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:33 am 
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Did you note that the static gun platforms are Light Vehicles?

They're made to be more vulnerable (As well as given speed 0) to compensate for their drop in cost.


You can't be more vulnerable than a formation of 3 Armor 6 Avs, making them LVs with ablative vehicles means they are tougher to destroy and might rally or Marshal  and still kill more than their points while soaking fire from more than their points as well. Most units can only do one of these since it should be expensive to do both.

How can Machariuses Garrison?
How can you field 9 Russ tanks in a single squadron

Unintended side-effect of the wording. You can Garrison the Macharius by putting a salamander with it, WEs don't count as units equal to their DC for Garrison.

Now the current list doesn't allow Salamanders, but it's come up and I've exploited this with the Minervans (3 stormhammers, 3 salamanders, not only does it Garrison it has 5 Leaders in it...)

So I want other people to know this is technically legal so we can discuss fixing it. ^^

You get 9 Tanks by again using the lack of a prohibition against giving Support the Upgrades you buy.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:32 am 
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Quote: (scarik @ 25 Aug. 2008, 06:33 )

Did you note that the static gun platforms are Light Vehicles?

They're made to be more vulnerable (As well as given speed 0) to compensate for their drop in cost.


You can't be more vulnerable than a formation of 3 Armor 6 Avs.

Yes you can, you can be 3 armour 6 LV's, now-vulnerable to AP fire (Which is generally superior to hit) and AT fire (So you can be attacked by mixed-weapon formations more efficiently).

making them LVs with ablative vehicles means they are tougher to destroy and might rally or Marshal  and still kill more than their points while soaking fire from more than their points as well. Most units can only do one of these since it should be expensive to do both.


Which is all theoryhammer that assumes you can use the Trojans (Which almost-noone ever takes as the points are often better spent elsewhere as points are always tight when playing a DK list due to the very expensive core Companies) as ablative armour ; Fire AP weapons at Death Korps artillery platforms and you can happily strip them away without touching the Trojans.

This list has been playtested... it's known to be slightly underpowered, not overpowered, and the artillery are invariably the first thing the enemy kills, as without the arty the Death Korps have very little ranged firepower.

How can Machariuses Garrison?
How can you field 9 Russ tanks in a single squadron

Unintended side-effect of the wording. You can Garrison the Macharius by putting a salamander with it

No you can't, this list doesn't have Salamanders.

Nor is there a single independent Macharius option that is able to take upgrades.

Nor can you take three of the same upgrade in this list in order to give 3 salamanders to the Macharius Tank Platoon (3 tanks).

Now the current list doesn't allow Salamanders, but it's come up and I've exploited this with the Minervans (3 stormhammers, 3 salamanders, not only does it Garrison it has 5 Leaders in it...)

I believe that's a known issue with the Minervan army list, and I'm sure it's something that Moscovian will want to deal with in time, I assume simply by saying 'Minervan War Engines count as a number of units equal to their total DC for Garrisoning purposes' in a Q&A.

You get 9 Tanks by again using the lack of a prohibition against giving Support the Upgrades you buy.

Nowhere does it say that 'Support Formations may take Upgrades', only that companies may be upgraded, but I might as well add in a prohibition to make it completely unambiguous.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:37 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 24 Aug. 2008, 10:24 )

Deaht Korps in an attacking siege army. They don't build ICBM silos anywhere. Be it rear or not.

I understand your point, but am loath to remove this rather cool unit...

...Just because the DK are an 'attacking' army, that doesn't mean that they're an 'army of motion'... it's expected that their trench lines will often stay static for years at a time, meaning that you don't really need the less-efficient mobile Deathstrike launchers?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Unintended side-effect of the wording. You can Garrison the Macharius by putting a salamander with it, WEs don't count as units equal to their DC for Garrison.


Why would WEs not count as a number of units equal to their DC?  3.0 says that they count that way:
For most rules purposes, a
war engine counts as being ‘worth’ a number of units
equal to its starting damage capacity, so a war engine’s
starting damage capacity is also used to work out how
many dice it rolls in an assault, how easy it is to pin and
so on.

I don't see a justification excluding the garrison rules from this requirement.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:42 pm 
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I'm gonna quote Jervis now:


Epic is for experienced wargamers, not experienced rules lawyers


:whistle:

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scarik
 Post subject: Current Death Korps
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Epic is for experienced wargamers, not experienced rules lawyers


That's silly, experienced wargamers often love to split hairs on rules as much or more than they enjoy the games themselves, lol.  :whistle:

The reason for saying WEs don't count DC to Garrison is because in all other rules it specifically mentions them, but Garrison 1) doesn't, and 2) isn't a rule at all, but a scenario condition.

I don't know how many times I've read people saying its not a rule on these forums alone, but its obvious that it doesn't get the same respect in Section 6 that it would have if it were in Section 2.

Nowhere does it say that 'Support Formations may take Upgrades', only that companies may be upgraded, but I might as well add in a prohibition to make it completely unambiguous.

Its like pulling teeth sometimes, lol. This is what I've been telling you all along.

The Steel Legion says this unambigously:Upgrades are added to the company and are not a separate formation.
Support formations may not be given company upgrades.

Clearly it needs to be said, otherwise the Gods of Word Count would have deleted it.

Now those are all technical issues rather than real armylist ones so back to the list for me.  :vo

What sort of Lists have people been playing? I have a great deal of experience with the IG and this list screams 2 things "Rough Rider horde" and "Artillery Swarm" to me.

Rough Riders in a mix of Companies and Platoons with a fate blob of Infantry and Artillery in the middle of the table.
or
Lots of Infantry Companies (HQ plus 3-4) with 2 Heavy Support platoons each (4 AA, 2 Manticore and 2 Basilisk looks nice) You lose AA or Infantry for Trenchworks as desired.

Its like the Seigemasters but with real Artillery.

Oh, and who said the Seigemasters could get SHT Companies, I don't have that in my version.

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