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The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:23 pm

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Barring any more Net:EA developments or balance concerns that affect the lists in here, this is the final update of 'The Siege of Mossino'.

Version 1.03

Death Korps changes:

Fire arcs stripped for SHT minor weapons.
Trojan reduced from 30cm to 20cm speed.
Rough Riders lose their extra attack.
One Warhound for 275pts, two for 500pts.

If the Net:EA Russ Demolisher has its Plasma Cannons changed, then that stat will be adopted, other than that, I don't expect too many more changes.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:30 pm

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Trojans should be teh same speed as Chimera surely?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:32 pm

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They're pulling heavy arty platforms ; The speed assumes that they take time to dismantle the platform, limber up, then get on the move, then unlimber at the other end.

So it's operational speed rather than maximum speed.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:52 pm

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First off, how many games has the list played to date? How do Gorgons do if used on mass (something like 8 of them supported by armoured formations, maybe with mach upgrades).

Death corps list comments

Vanquisher FF should be 4+

Sure about your thunderer stats? (Speed, TRA, FF)

Do Centaurs go as fast as Salamanders? FF should probably be 5+

You have upped the thudd guns CC, any reason? Likewise teh heavy mortars.

FAQ question, can the silo garrison (WE vs 0cm speed)?

Trojan - transport, might it be 'cooler' to say one light vehicle? Better imagery

Oh or infantry stand (to cover the mortar and thudd).

Weapon platforms - CC6+? Not a fan of zero then?

Two flak platforms is somewhat redundant? Also surely they are worth the same? Firepower traded for range? Maybe simplify into one formation?

Deathstrike Silo far better than two deathstrikes. Harder to break/suppress. Rarely see mine live longer than Turn one, this should be able to get at least one missile away. Would say prob 250 due to increased threat to enemy.

Medusa platform. It is there to replace bombards and manticores? Should all three be in the list then?

Gorgon. Critical very complicated, anything wrong with it being immobilised only?

Stormsword - FW seems to think it has 50% more range than a demolisher, so why the same stat? Why not 45cm?

Macharius - Crit effect, no explosion? Didn't want the vmb version as well?

Death corps - do they use armour formations? I thought the fluff stated they only ever have them as infantry support?

Replace Rare Variants with Vanquisher, its the only one.

280 points for 6 thunderers? I'd be tempted to try and use lots. Say 5 formations, 3 rough riders, HQ, forts and flak.

Heavy tank platoon seems to be very good value - 700 points for two formations giving me war engines, 8 battlecannon, 4 vanquisher cannon and a smattering of support weapons.

Are the grenadiers underpriced? Point of comparison being sappers, they give up demo charges for a 50 point reduction and scout.

Gorgons - make 1-3, x points each? Or enough gorgons to transport formation, x points each 9to account for upgrades).

How do the big infantry formations play? Better for attack than siegers certainly. Right price or -/+?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:58 pm

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MOSSINIAN
Same comments on deathstrikes replacement.

Arty batteries shouldn?t have the emplacements option for free, maybe make it +25 points or scrap like siege list.
Company shouldn?t have transports option.

To make it a bit different?
Replace blitzen with your FW flak piece?
Use 1st edition Bombard
Use 1st edition Hellhound (really easy to scratchbuild to!)

Or if you want to be really radical maybe rename my siege directors cut list as this and replace it? Lists very similar, well mines a bit lower tech than the core siege list. I can even do most of the formatting and of course have all the units

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:19 am

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Vanquisher FF should be 4+

Roger.

Sure about your thunderer stats? (Speed, TRA, FF)

Speed is fine (Imperial Armour I indicates it receives no significant speed increase, maybe even a speed loss, IIRC).

TRA is to represent the Thick Top Armour of the 40k rules, I'm not wedded to it but it's caused no problems.

FF, I don't see its single gun being as impressive as a full Leman Russ with all of its guns ; I see the Marine Vindicator's FF4+ comes from their superior training, and don't see the Thunderer being as competently handled in a Firefight.

Do Centaurs go as fast as Salamanders? FF should probably be 5+

They are indeed very fast vehicles.

They're only armed with a single heavy stubber, why should they get FF5+ ?

You have upped the thudd guns CC, any reason? Likewise teh heavy mortars.

Indeed, that's because they're crewed by Death Korpsmen instead of 'normal' IG.

The Death Korps are a regiment renowned for their Close Combat abilities, and thus many of their units recieve +1 to the normal CC stat.

FAQ question, can the silo garrison (WE vs 0cm speed)?

RAW would say that the 0cm move allowed it to garrison regardless of being a War Engine or not, IIRC.

These days it would allow a Garison on overwatch(!).

Trojan - transport, might it be 'cooler' to say one light vehicle? Better imagery

Oh or infantry stand (to cover the mortar and thudd).

I think it's clearer simply to say what it's able to carry in this list.

IIRC it can't tow the lighter guns anyway (That's the preserve of the Centaur).

Weapon platforms - CC6+? Not a fan of zero then?

As with the light guns, the crews recieve +1 to the normal CC stat.

Two flak platforms is somewhat redundant? Also surely they are worth the same? Firepower traded for range? Maybe simplify into one formation?

I've found that the Heavy AA guns tend to underperform significantly at 150pts, and could probably go down.

Deathstrike Silo far better than two deathstrikes. Harder to break/suppress. Rarely see mine live longer than Turn one, this should be able to get at least one missile away. Would say prob 250 due to increased threat to enemy.

Noted, I'll meet you half way at 225pts?

Medusa platform. It is there to replace bombards and manticores? Should all three be in the list then?

Medusa platform is in there because the Death Korps use Medusa platforms.

Bombards and Manticore platforms are already in the list... ?

Gorgon. Critical very complicated, anything wrong with it being immobilised only?

Agreed.

1st Crit immobile, 2nd crit == destroyed.

Stormsword - FW seems to think it has 50% more range than a demolisher, so why the same stat? Why not 45cm?

Some legacy issue no doubt (The vehicle saw several revisions throughout development).

I'm not adverse to upping the range on the gun, the vehicle tends to underperform.

Macharius - Crit effect, no explosion? Didn't want the vmb version as well?

Nope, no explosion, it's not big enough IMHO.

Mossino was made before the VMB version was made by FW ; There's probably nothing wrong with allowing it as a command tank instead of a Vanquisher Macharius?

Death corps - do they use armour formations? I thought the fluff stated they only ever have them as infantry support?

They do make extensive use of Tanks, although their tactical use is best described as 'suicidal' (Krieg tanks don't seem to have a reverse gear... they just charge across no-man's land, and more often than not are simply destroyed instead of retreating )

Replace Rare Variants with Vanquisher, its the only one.

True, again that's a legacy issue, the list used to have the Destroyer Tank Hunter too, until FW's Death Korps rulebook came out and it turned out that this most germanic of vehicles wasn't actually available to them.

280 points for 6 thunderers? I'd be tempted to try and use lots. Say 5 formations, 3 rough riders, HQ, forts and flak.

That's one of the reasons that they're so slow, and their firefight is so unimpressive.

What are your thoughts on the balance of the RR company?

I've been considering limiting their presence in some manner, perhaps by limiting them to a 2-1 balance between them and the other companies (So no RR company unless you have at least 2 other companies).

Heavy tank platoon seems to be very good value - 700 points for two formations giving me war engines, 8 battlecannon, 4 vanquisher cannon and a smattering of support weapons.

They've been quite brittle in play ; 2DC mini Baneblades tend to break / get surpressed / get destroyed a lot quicker than their 3DC big brothers.

Are the grenadiers underpriced? Point of comparison being sappers, they give up demo charges for a 50 point reduction and scout.

IIRC Sappers are rather unpopular at their own points cost?

Gorgons - make 1-3, x points each? Or enough gorgons to transport formation, x points each 9to account for upgrades).

The second would be more sensible if that route were needed, but I don't see a driving need to change the structure here, why do you propose a change, aesthetics?

How do the big infantry formations play? Better for attack than siegers certainly. Right price or -/+?

As the core of the list they've been the most heavily playtested ; I think their points cost is about right.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:32 am

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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 06 2008,23:58)

QUOTE

MOSSINIAN
Same comments on deathstrikes replacement.

225pts?

Arty batteries shouldn?t have the emplacements option for free, maybe make it +25 points or scrap like siege list.
Company shouldn?t have transports option.

Roger, I must have missed those as I had intended to map across all of your suggested changes.

To make it a bit different?
Replace blitzen with your FW flak piece?

Nah, the blitzen is a nice model, and helps make the Mossinians distinct from the Krieg.

Use 1st edition Bombard
Use 1st edition Hellhound (really easy to scratchbuild to!)

One of my aims with this suppliment was to make it approachable to noobs, that meant that OOP / scratchbuild models were kept to the absolute minimum possible.

That way, almost everything bar the Gorgon & Macharius are avilable right now from GW or FW, rather than from Ebay.

That could be revised of course, I've had comments that the Mossinians are very bland (And they are, to be honest), and don't offer anything of substance when placed against the Siegemasters.

Or if you want to be really radical maybe rename my siege directors cut list as this and replace it? Lists very similar, well mines a bit lower tech than the core siege list. I can even do most of the formatting and of course have all the units

I'd be humbly grateful if you wanted to offer your list to the suppliment, and I think perhaps it could help give the Mossinians a more unique feeling.

I'll read it carefully tomorrow to check if it could fit in (IIRC it would fit very well)... the Ogryns must stay though!

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:45 am

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First off, how many games has the list played to date? How do Gorgons do if used on mass (something like 8 of them supported by armoured formations, maybe with mach upgrades).

I missed this.

I've played ~35 games with the list, and have seen reports of a few games (Some games have been played that I've not been aware of at all, for example this guy: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=2&u=11787216 ... I've no idea at all how many games he's played with the list, but the couple of times he posted on TacComms didn't include comments saying the list is over/underpowered...).

Gorgons generally are only useful as a 4+RA buffer in assaults ; Outside of Engagements they're deathtraps!

I'll play a few more games this month, why not?!

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:02 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 07 2008,00:19)

QUOTE

Sure about your thunderer stats? (Speed, TRA, FF)

Speed is fine (Imperial Armour I indicates it receives no significant speed increase, maybe even a speed loss, IIRC).

TRA is to represent the Thick Top Armour of the 40k rules, I'm not wedded to it but it's caused no problems.

FF, I don't see its single gun being as impressive as a full Leman Russ with all of its guns ; I see the Marine Vindicator's FF4+ comes from their superior training, and don't see the Thunderer being as competently handled in a Firefight.

I was just wondering

Speed, as you point out with the Trojan is tactical as well.

They're only armed with a single heavy stubber, why should they get FF5+ ?

Because I thought they had more gear?

I've found that the Heavy AA guns tend to underperform significantly at 150pts, and could probably go down.

I'd just make them a mixed battery for the hydra cost.

Medusa platform. It is there to replace bombards and manticores? Should all three be in the list then?

Medusa platform is in there because the Death Korps use Medusa platforms.

Bombards and Manticore platforms are already in the list... ?

The former makes the latter two irrelavant, and vice versa.

Gorgon. Critical very complicated, anything wrong with it being immobilised only?

1st Crit immobile, 2nd crit == destroyed.

How many times will a 3dc WE take two crits? Just immobilised is fine.

I'm not adverse to upping the range on the gun, the vehicle tends to underperform.

Up it!

Mossino was made before the VMB version was made by FW ; There's probably nothing wrong with allowing it as a command tank instead of a Vanquisher Macharius?

Is 4 x 45cm AP3+/AT5+ equal to 2 x 75cm AP4+/AT2+ on this chassis?

They do make extensive use of Tanks, although their tactical use is best described as 'suicidal' (Krieg tanks don't seem to have a reverse gear... they just charge across no-man's land, and more often than not are simply destroyed instead of retreating )

I meant more infantry support as directly attached to infantry like the French did at the start of WWII (at least thats how I read the FW fluff).

What are your thoughts on the balance of the RR company?

They look okay, I just wonder about them being a core choice (so support and upgrades).

IIRC Sappers are rather unpopular at their own points cost?

Well, no one bar me uses them

Still scout is usefull on troops with a good armour save like you've given these guys. Mine have only cc'ed once so far, normally they just flame stuff.

Gorgons - make 1-3, x points each? Or enough gorgons to transport formation, x points each 9to account for upgrades).

The second would be more sensible if that route were needed, but I don't see a driving need to change the structure here, why do you propose a change, aesthetics?

Well to remove the text on the infantry upgrade and allow attached gear to be transported.

Actually why not have seperate gorgon formations (1-3 strong)?

Deathstrike Silo far better than two deathstrikes. Harder to break/suppress. Rarely see mine live longer than Turn one, this should be able to get at least one missile away. Would say prob 250 due to increased threat to enemy.

Noted, I'll meet you half way at 225pts?

Deathstrike comments in a bit, but just think about ways the enemy can deal with them turn one compared to chimera deathstrikes.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:05 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 07 2008,00:45)

QUOTE

First off, how many games has the list played to date? How do Gorgons do if used on mass (something like 8 of them supported by armoured formations, maybe with mach upgrades).

I asked out of interest and to see if they needed much more testing. With lots of tests already if there are any changes 1-2 games to see obvious problems (and a fix to the deathstrikes, rational to come!) should be fine then and they can get pinned up to type one status and left alone for a year.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:38 am

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I'd just make them a mixed battery for the hydra cost.

Capital idea.

The former makes the latter two irrelavant, and vice versa.

Being as the costs are different, and they have different secondary roles (The Bombards can move to grab objectives for example) I disagree.

Also, the list directly maps across the different arty types available to the Krieg.

Is 4 x 45cm AP3+/AT5+ equal to 2 x 75cm AP4+/AT2+ on this chassis?

Just by eyeballing it, I reckon so.

Well, no one bar me uses them

Still scout is usefull on troops with a good armour save like you've given these guys. Mine have only cc'ed once so far, normally they just flame stuff.

They're just Storm Troopers with heavy flamers instead of Plasma Guns (So they lose their AT5+, but their AP5+ becomes AP4+ Ignore Cover)... I thought that was a fair trade.

Actually why not have seperate gorgon formations (1-3 strong)?

The dynamics of the list would change, as you'd be able to Triple the Gorgons forwards, then Engage out of them with the infantry onboard... wouldn't that be overpowered?

Deathstrike comments in a bit, but just think about ways the enemy can deal with them turn one compared to chimera deathstrikes.

It's fair to be concerned about them, they were one of the last additions to the list, and haven't seen significant playtesting.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:07 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 07 2008,11:38)

QUOTE

They're just Storm Troopers with heavy flamers instead of Plasma Guns (So they lose their AT5+, but their AP5+ becomes AP4+ Ignore Cover)... I thought that was a fair trade.

Maybe knock them down to 6+ armour like sappers? Or not. 5+ though is very good when assaulting (another reason why I mostly flame things). Oh and with IC small arms I would suggest dropping their FF to 5+. Maybe give them a CC boost instead?

I would be tempted to mass these forward, 2+ formations, ready to assault strong points.

Oh and I'd jump on the chance to give these guys a 35cm move for 50 points, absolute bargain! No idea why I didn't spot it before.

Sappers are somewhat overpriced though. I wonder if adding Ogryns makes them irrelevant?

The dynamics of the list would change, as you'd be able to Triple the Gorgons forwards, then Engage out of them with the infantry onboard... wouldn't that be overpowered?

You can do that with WE?

Actually beyond integral units and aircraft I don't think I've ever had mobile separate transports!

Deathstrike comments in a bit, but just think about ways the enemy can deal with them turn one compared to chimera deathstrikes.

It's fair to be concerned about them, they were one of the last additions to the list, and haven't seen significant playtesting.

How many ways can you think of to deal with them? Deathstrikes you can at least attack twice and break, plus their save is 6+. A full salvo from a vulture squadron will odd on not even break it.

Properly positioned it will be in cover and will not be able to be direct fired. Terminators can crack it if you haven't got a scout screen. Pretty much the only thing with a good chance (leaving aside of course support craft) is a deathstrike battery.

You have to cost it assuming it will definatively fire its weapon. So thats 250 to me for definite. You might even be able to get a second shot off turn 3.

Really I would ideally in addition to upping the cost and reduce the DC to 2 and FF to 6 (what's its shooting, just small arms from bayonet armed defenders?).

Oh and it should have TRA, being a silo!

Oh and an entirely random thought, why not have an alternate SC based on the bunker model - the worlds first stationary SC

(Ok, very random thought!)

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:09 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 07 2008,00:32)

QUOTE

One of my aims with this suppliment was to make it approachable to noobs, that meant that OOP / scratchbuild models were kept to the absolute minimum possible.

That way, almost everything bar the Gorgon & Macharius are avilable right now from GW or FW, rather than from Ebay.

Well, some scratchbuilding is fun

And the different model bit isn't really needed with the counts as rule. One bombard or hellhound is much like any other. Pretty much the only tricky things are mortars (which aren't that hard to make being three bits of sprue) and the tactical missile launchers (which are just scaffolding which can be made inordinately easily from sprue and a missile from anywhere).

Of course people will use ebay, DRM and exodus wars anyway because it is cheaper!

I'd be humbly grateful if you wanted to offer your list to the suppliment, and I think perhaps it could help give the Mossinians a more unique feeling.

I'll read it carefully tomorrow to check if it could fit in (IIRC it would fit very well)... the Ogryns must stay though!

So what do you think?

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:11 pm

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Oh and Strategy rating!!!

It should be 2 as you are an attacking army not static defensive like siegers. Odds on you should have the initiative over them!

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Siege of Mossino, v1.03

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:53 pm

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They're storm troopers, so they have to keep their 5+ armour save.

Perhaps their FF could be dropped to 5+, but I've tested them quite a bit and they don't see unduly overpowered... perhaps a small points increase (25pts).

Oh and I'd jump on the chance to give these guys a 35cm move for 50 points, absolute bargain! No idea why I didn't spot it before.

I've only tested the scout cars once, and they were quickly blatted aside.

Still, I agree that it looks very good on paper, and will up the Centaurs' points a tad.

Sappers are somewhat overpriced though. I wonder if adding Ogryns makes them irrelevant?

Perhaps their price could be dropped a tad?

I think their role is distinct from Ogryns.

You have to cost it assuming it will definatively fire its weapon. So thats 250 to me for definite. You might even be able to get a second shot off turn 3.

OK up to 250pts it is.

So what do you think? (About Chris' variant siege list)

Looks like it would be a good fit.

Oh and Strategy rating!!!

It should be 2 as you are an attacking army not static defensive like siegers. Odds on you should have the initiative over them!

The Death Korps aren't that smart.

I guess it could go up to SR2 again, given the Krieg's attacking style.

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