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Minervan Legion Updated
Moscovian
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Follow this thread to get the newest version of the Minervan Armored Legion List. ?This is the FINAL version and will hopefully undergo no changes until next year.

Feel free to comment on this thread, bearing in mind that the thread was also used for the Beta Version and as such have some things mentioned that have already been addressed.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:44 pm 
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I had a quick skim of the Minervan list:

- As the Stormhammer is now 15cm speed, I guess its fluff text could use a little re-write?

- I'm guessing the change to SR1 is a balance tweak?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:20 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 07 2008,10:44)
QUOTE
I had a quick skim of the Minervan list:

- As the Stormhammer is now 15cm speed, I guess its fluff text could use a little re-write?

- I'm guessing the change to SR1 is a balance tweak?

Nope, the SR was a typo and will be corrected.  Good catch.

The Stormhammer speed was something to just make the the SHTs more consistent with each other.  There are several references in Armageddon and Swordwind to one type of unit going faster than another but their datafax reads the same movement, so I felt a little more comfortable with the change.  Time will tell if it overpowers the unit or not.

The masses are unnervingly quiet on the Amphibious rule.... Interesting.

And to set the record straight, there was never any intention on my part of removing the Minervan List from Raiders.  I just didn't respond to the PMs and posts at the time.  As you can now see, they are firmly wedged between a rock (the Necrons) and a hard place (the Dark Eldar). :cool:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:23 pm 
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The masses are unnervingly quiet on the Amphibious rule.... Interesting.


This was debated early in the Minervan list's development, but shot down on fluff grounds (*All* Chimeras are supposed to be amphibious, yet they don't have that rule in Epic).

I've no particular objection to it being in there, but question whether its inclusion is simply a 'fluffy' rule that will not actually affect the majority of games (As water features are generally unpopular).

And to set the record straight, there was never any intention on my part of removing the Minervan List from Raiders.  I just didn't respond to the PMs and posts at the time.

No problemo. :)

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zombocom
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:02 pm 
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To me, amphibious seems to be a rule that's just there for the sake of it. It's hardly ever coming to come up, so seems unneccesary to me.




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Soren
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:21 pm 
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agree

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:52 pm 
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I have a few questions on the list.

What keeps the Salamander Command from being a no-brainer choice?  It looks like Commander and Leader is worth 25 points alone, not to mention the addition of the unit itself.  With Scout you could even keep it well away from the actual company if that were useful (for protection or maybe a late-game objective grab).  I could see it might not be as useful in SHT companies unless you were buying other AV upgrades, but even with the Arty it's hard see a reason not to take it.

In the support formations, is the Salamander an added unit or a replacement?  I assume an additional unit, but I wasn't sure.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:00 pm 
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I too am concerned by it, preferring the other set of stats I'm playing with for the mech list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:36 pm 
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I don't believe the Salamander has seen significant testing in the Minervan list (Even at 25pts people haven't been using it... possibly because they are silly :) ).


I think TRC's proposed stats are possibly too expensive.

For 50pts (An increase of 25pts over the Minervans), the vehicle loses 5cm speed, loses the commander ability, loses the scout ability, and gains one transport space*.


I could see the Minervan one being worth 50pts though.


In the support formations, is the Salamander an added unit or a replacement?  I assume an additional unit, but I wasn't sure.


It's supposed to be additional.

* It's worth noting that the Salamander has no transport capacity in 40k, it's a pure C&C vehicle and the assigned crew may never leave the vehicle.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:25 pm 
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I don't mind bumping it to 50 points (as it is always better to have a new list too weak than too strong).  I think if I bumped it to 37 1/2 points I might get complaints.

I would like some other opinions on the price move before I make a decision though (Soren's especially since he has played the Minervans quite often).

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Soren
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:40 pm 
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I always take a salamander command when I have 25 pts left. They come quite handy but much much more important to me, I like the style of the vehicle. (the only thing that differs minervans from Steel Legion russes)  In combat it?s rather useless. Poor range and flamer on 15cm never ever get a shot off and 6+ armor means you have to protect it quite good (together with other special vehicles in a Russ company) I think once I had a situation where I used it?s FF value, else it dies quickly if you target the formation with enough shots and the salamander gets one of them.

25 is OK, but I will not pay a point more for it. Minervans even get more expensive after the last update and I really struggle to get a 2 LR Company 3000pts army working (support slot issue)

My conclusion: nice style feature, but useless against armies with massive firepower, no armor, no weapons, but commander....never ever used commander. Who wants to assault if you can shoot with a full company of Russes?

Asw always my 0,0002 cent.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:07 pm 
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We've started playtesting this list properly in my area now and I'm finally able to get some first-hand experience of the list.

After some consideration, we've decided that the Stormhammer seems to be overpowered ; It was probably slightly too powerful before when it had 10cm movement, at 15cm movement our games are showing that it is now far too good.

I strongly suggest reducing the Stormhammer's speed back to 10cm, and possibly even the ranges / numbers of its other guns too, at whatever point Raiders sees its next update.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:18 am 
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Arg, lost reply!
To summerise previous long message
10cm sucked, couldn't get anywhere, needed to march and double and even then often was outside 30cm of infantry target. Went nowhere fast (remember can't garrisson) - compared to russ, 2 turns doubling 80cm moved, SHT/infantry 60, SH 60 if it marches twice, 40! if it doubles.
Guns - slightly better than a baneblade
75cm 3/3 30cm 3/4 IC comparable to 2x45cm 3/3.
2x45cm AT5+, 45cm 5+/6+ worse than 4x45cm AT5+ (by one gun)
3x30 AP4+ worse than 4x30cm AP4+ (by one gun)
Concluesion, yes better but why is it showing up as so much better for you E&C, its a different of one twin heavy bolter and one lascannon.

Note I like twin siege cannon and 4 heavy bolters :)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:19 am 
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Perhaps it's just one of these critical mass things ; We're seeing them fielded in SHT companies, so differences are multiplied, and with its 15cm speed it's really seeing no problem in bringing its extra weapons to bear (Most shooting takes place within 45cm after all anyway) ; Really, 10cm speed was in there as a balancing mechanism for the extra guns, and I'm worried that the Stormhammers are now too good.

Certainly with 15cm move there doesn't seem to be a reason to ever take a Baneblade when you can take a Stormhammer, as they have 25% better AP and AT firepower at their respective ranges (45cm and 30cm) with no drawbacks.... if you really want to lay blast markers @75cm you can just attach some Leman Russ tanks.

At one point yesterday, three Stormhammers fired (Not even sustaining) and I removed 18 units... that's good.

So yeah, Stormhammers are now overpowered, and I most seriously recommend them for a downgrade in a year's time (When Raiders is next reviewed), or even at the next print run (If there is one).

I can be convinced otherwise, but AFAIK most playtesting up until now has not focused on the Stormhammers.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:44 pm 
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It does? Tell that to my poor 'guard! (Few ever come within range for long :( )
Still can't see how 3 extra lascannon and 3 extra twin heavy bolter makes them radically different - and yes 18 hits is good as the average for a mixed ap/at round of fire is 14, as compared to a baneblades 11.

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