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Proposed Steel Legion Changes

 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:32 pm 
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General Imperial Guard Mission statement.

Imerpial Guard Steel Legion changes
Taken from the previous discussion which in term follows all the other ones, votes, polls etc.

The changes are intended for two audiences. The first is the NetEA community, these are changes to the current list and units for the NetEA game, most likely to be in the handbook. The second is for a slight variant Steel Legion list to send to fanatic in the the hope they make it official or at least in the vault.

Please play some games with these changes before they get sent off to the email account in the sky.

Oh and check for errors and bits I've missed as this is quite late at night after assembling furniture all day!


List

Commissars become 1 per 500 points
Reasoning, its bad for modellers, not everyone has an extra unit for a formation with a commissar in! Also can be unbalancing for very small and very large games. Now the commissar scales and can be taken into account both by the enemy and the list creator. Downside its a bit dull, but fundamentally a tournament mindset is often. Go play scenarios!

Snipers become 1-2 units for 25 points each
Reasoning, its one of the least used units and its at least a way to use up the odd 25 points and get them used a bit more. No Ogryns are not changing, they are good enough as it is.

Emperor battleships become 250 points
Reasoning, no one has ever used one. Lunars stay at 150 as I've been convinced that the big barrage and pin point strike as well as potentially messing up a marine drop could be worth it. Plus they could potentially do very well and at 125 this seems a little cheap.

Marauder Bomber Squadrons become 250 points
Reasoning, with the increased bomb load and survivability of the attack (6/3), its hopefully better.

Single Warhound Titans become 275 points
Reasoning, just to stop people taking four at the common tourny 3000 point level as they can play games by themselves.

Units (note for SG unit changes are explained by becoming Mars pattern)

Deathstrikes lose their notes section (containing the text about not needing a LoF) and gain indirect on their missile.
Reasoning, stops overwatch abuse and makes them a bit harder to fire from a near invulnerable hidden position.

Roughriders lose the extra attack.
Reasoning they were such nifty assault troops, they put assault marines to shame! This might mean a 25 point discount is needed, but only testing will show.

Baneblades become Mars pattern. Replace all Baneblade weapons with the following
3 x Twin Heavy Bolters, 30cm, AP4+
2 x Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+
Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward
Main Battle Cannon, 75cm, AP3+/AT3+
Reasoning, the tank was under gunned for its points in comparison to other Guard armour and a poor choice verses shadowswords. And perhaps most importantly weren't WYSIWYG when compared to the best Baneblade models!

Vulture has range of Hell Strike missiles reduced to 90cm.
Reasoning, because so many people complain about it. I reckon its the Tau and Eldar players complaining about being out skimmed.

Demolisher changes Plasma Cannon stats to 30cm, AP5+/AT5+
Reasoning, its not the main weapon system, it is hard to remember (sorry to anyone I've shot twice) unlike something like a manticore (where it is the main weapon) and the tank only typically gets two turns fighting with the first turn having been a double. Further other units could use the weapon (like for instance Dark Angel marines to nicely differentiate them) but not when it is slow firing. Finally slow fire for a 15 minute turn on an infantry heavy weapon system doesn't fit Epic.

Marauder Bomber bomb load increases to 3BP.
reasoning, its a quick fix and I encourage other lists to test and use the 'proper' 2dc 6+ save bomber.


Purely style based changes

Sentinel Pattern changes to Mars.
Reasoning, its got a multilaser! Its a shame the sold model is the Lascannon varient. I would encourage other lists to use that if they can! An alternative plan that would require more support is switching the gun to a lascannon. And yes, in my dream world the unit loses its save and the points change (125 for 6?), but clearly all sentinels on Armegedon get the upgrading treatment!

Imperial Guard Infantry becomes Steel Legion Infantry and switches Autocannon for Missile Launchers.
Reasoning, purely style and to allow other Imerpial Guard regiments people are making to be a bit more distinctive.


Some things we aren't doing. Making Hellhounds cheaper. For 150 they are a fine accessory to a mechanised formation. Higher armour and such. The specialised weapon means they aren't compulsory, but have one set around is fine. Making Griffons cheaper. They are again fine at a hundred, certain players don't like them but for 3bp barrage and 3 heavy bolters moving at a fair clip they are again an okay upgrade.

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:28 am 
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clearly all sentinels on Armegedon get the upgrading treatment!


The Epic Sentinel clearly has the 'extra armour' upgrade from 40k, as it is not open-topped, but has an armoured cab. :D

Imperial Guard Infantry becomes Steel Legion Infantry and switches Autocannon for Missile Launchers.
Reasoning, purely style and to allow other Imerpial Guard regiments people are making to be a bit more distinctive.

I understand the name change... but why change the weapon name?

Are missile launchers a more iconic weapon of the Steel Legion than Autocannons?


Demolisher changes Plasma Cannon stats to 30cm, AP5+/AT5+

After a few seconds baulking at the magnitude of the change, I'm willing to try it out. :)



I disagree with you on the Griffons.

I've used them in a dozen games and think they're the worst unit (And probably the least cost-effective too) in the Steel Legion list.

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:54 am 
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Nice changes all :)

@E&C: Armageddon Pattern Sentinels all have Enclosed Cabines upgrade which eliminates the extra vulnerability of being Open Topped.

And yes the Missile Launcher is the most used heavy weapon of the Steel Legion.

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Hmm. I thought open topped usually manifested itself as light vehicle?

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:06 pm 
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The non-Armageddon Basilisk isn't technically "open top", it just doesn't have an enclosed load compartment.

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:33 pm 
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@Dave: In Wh40k the standard Basilsik is open topped (look in the Imperial Guard Codex, it just says so). You have to buy the Enclosed Cabine upgrade and then you have an Armageddon Pattern Basilisk.

In Epic Light Vehicles are all units which are in Wh40k either allaround armour value 10 or a Bike with 2 Wounds.

Open Topped only affects the armour save not the unit type. For example the Bombard and the Griffon are open topped but they are Armoured Vehiclea but with only a 6+ save.

Strangely the Hydra has only a 6+ save despite it is enclosed and has the same armour value as a Chimera...





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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:14 am 
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I'm a little fuzzy on why you'd make Snipers 0-2 for 25pts each, but not do the same with Ogryns.

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:39 am 
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Because people actually take Ogryns. Hell i used to use them for LR defence (have them in the chimera for counter charge purposes). They are used even less than Griffons E&C :)

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:13 pm 
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(Hena @ May 03 2008,11:43)
QUOTE
I would not include the Demolisher Russ changes in this list. It's not really needed as such and should be left out.

Possibly same could be applied to Snipers (they are seen from time to time too).

It really makes the weapon unusably for other lists. And its too bloody fiddly for a secondary weapon on an AV (again apologies to all those I have shot twice).

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:42 pm 
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I would like to see Commissars as an upgrade for companies / some choosen formations like this ;

Commissar
Add one Commissar to one unit of your formation. If your formation include a Commander unit or a Supreme Commander unit, the Commissar must be attached to it.
Cost : 25 points

And remove that "Free Commissar" rule. Characters with Charismatic, Fearless and Leader rules shouldn't be free, especially when you can put them where you want, making some formations actually much more powerfull for their cost. And it is an Imperial Guard player who is talking.  :D






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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:50 pm 
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If you are putting cost to commissar it should be more like +50... but I'm not that eager to adapt that, IG needs that 10% discount to entire army... :]  But other choice could be that certain formations always get commissar, others not, and it can then be calculated in.


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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:07 pm 
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(rpr @ May 05 2008,12:50)
QUOTE
If you are putting cost to commissar it should be more like +50... but I'm not that eager to adapt that, IG needs that 10% discount to entire army... :]  But other choice could be that certain formations always get commissar, others not, and it can then be calculated in.

That's why I put their price to +25 points, knowing that only one Commissar can be taken for one formation. It changes a lot of things, especially when you limit the formations that can have that upgrade.

On the other hand, "Free Commissars" have nothing to do with "10% discount" ; it's more about putting free characters with Charismatic, Fearless and Leader whenever you need them - and often more than you really need. Heavy Tank Companies with three Commissars or plenty of lone Shadowswords each with Commissar aren't really needed, if you see what I mean...






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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:14 pm 
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(Magarch @ May 05 2008,12:42)
QUOTE
I would like to see Commissars as an upgrade for companies / some choosen formations like this ;

Commissar
Add one Commissar to one unit of your formation. If your formation include a Commander unit or a Supreme Commander unit, the Commissar must be attached to it.
Cost : 25 points

And remove that "Free Commissar" rule. Characters with Charismatic, Fearless and Leader rules shouldn't be free, especially when you can put them where you want, making some formations actually much more powerfull for their cost. And it is an Imperial Guard player who is talking. ?:D

If that was the case you would essentially be saying that the Guard were 5% overpowered. Is that reflected in there win/loss do you think?

And note only this list has this system, other lists could have a different system.

And yes, its a max of 1 commissar per company!

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 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:52 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 05 2008,18:14)
QUOTE
If that was the case you would essentially be saying that the Guard were 5% overpowered. Is that reflected in there win/loss do you think?

It's just I hate the free stuff in army lists, because it's always abused by the players. After all, since it's free, why not taking them ? There's no advantage in that, so you just "have to" take them, right ? In fact, the player who doesn't want to take commissars in for some reason (background, for example...yes, it's stupid for many "technical" players, I know) begins with a disadvantage since it's free. That wouldn't be the same if he doesn't want to use vultures, 'cause these ones have a price and then their points can be spent on something else.

It doesn't really make the list utterly overpowered, no...But the list wouldn't be underpowered as well if Commissars weren't free. It gives an advantage to the Steel legion player, yes. What I'm saying is that it isn't really needed for the list to work.


And yes, its a max of 1 commissar per company!


Damn. Guess I should change my glasses, you're absolutely right. Oh well, forget my wrong example.  :D

Hmmm. Gonna have to apologize to some of my opponents, too. Yes, I was a big bad player.






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