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Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:07 pm

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This has been a minor project of mine over the past couple of months. I've taken the original list and added a lot of the changes that Chroma and Heavens To Betsy suggested. I also took a good look at the 40k codex that's online and made some changes as well to stats, organization and armaments. The list is below and, if you're interested, I've listed my thought process on the each of the units below.

catachans.pdf

(Edit: moved it to my own webserver so I don't have to deal with Google removing the page breaks.)

Is there an AC for this list? I'd like to get their thoughts.

To start, here's what I came up with for representing the Deathworld Veteran rules in Epic. I was pretty happy with how these worked out, the 15cm through terrain might be a little fiddlely though. The cover saves however are very easy to work with.

Jungle Fighers
Jungle Fighters: Jungle and Woods terrain features do not block the line of fire of Jungle Fighter units unless the line of fire passes through more than 15cm of Jungle or Woods. In other words, Jungle Fighters can shoot 15cm into and out of Jungle and Woods terrain features but the line of fire is still block to units on the other side of these features. Normally a valid line of fire is only allowed to pass through no more than 10cm of a terrain feature.

Jungle Fighter units may re-roll any 1s rolled on a Jungle, Marsh and or Woods cover saves.

The following are my changes to the units from the regular Steel Legion list.

Catachan Supreme Commander
I used the regular Supreme Commander as a basis.

I dropped the armour to 6+ as they're in flak vests but I figured they are good enough to make use of any bit of cover they can find. I also thought that the list should stick to having no Commissars (the "Oops! Sorry Sir!" rule in full effect) but to offset that loss I gave the unit the Commissar's abilities. Death World veteran officers, in my opinion, would be excellent leaders, very inspirational and fearless.

I dropped one of the CC macro-weapon attacks in lieu of just a plain extra attack. Also, the Heavy Bolter is listed in the current IG codex as the Catachan's heavy weapon of choice, I replaced the Autocannon with it.

Catachan Commander
I used the regular Commander as a basis.

The stats are roughly the same as the Catachan SC, minus the SC and with Commander and Leader added. I mainly did this because I didn't want to bump the SC up too much, so they ended up with the same stats. The power-weapons are gone however so there's a slight difference between them.

Catachan Infantry
I used the regular Infantry as a basis.

Aside from the Heavy Bolter/Autocannon swap I increased their CC to 5+ to represent their increased WS and ability to carry CC weapons in 40k. To offset this I decreased an infantry company from 12 stands to 10.

Catachan Fire Support Squad
I used the regular Fire Support Squad as a basis.

I kept the Autocannons here as I thought the Catachans will still need some light AT. Renaming them to Missile Launchers may be more appropriate though fluff wise. Again, I increased their CC to 5+ to represent their increased WS and ability to carry CC weapons in 40k. To offset this I increased the Fire Support upgrade to 150 points.

Catachan Mortar Support Squad
I used the Thudd Gun as a basis.

I upped the move to 15cm and the CC 5+. To compensate for this I dropped the Thudd's AT6+. I kept the Mortar upgrade's cost at 150 as I thought they would be equivalent to 4 Thudd Guns.

Catachan Snipers
I used the regular snipers as a basis.

I did some major tweaking here. The armour got bumped up to a 6+ to show their maximum use of cover, I also increased the CC to 5+ because of the better 40k WS and finally I made the sniper rifles AP4+ due to the Death World toxins. I've found a cost of 50 points each has been fair in my play tests with them.

Ogryns
No changes really, I just removed the Ogryn Close Combat Weapons and added their ability to the Ripper Gun with an AND clause. This might seem pointless but it helped me get the reference table all on one sheet ("Ogryn Close Combat Weapons" is a rather long name...). Plus they use the Ripper Guns as clubs anyway in 40k...

Catachan Sentinel
I used the regular Sentinel as a basis.

I swapped the CC with the FF and gave it a heavy flamer instead (with ignore cover for both shooting and FF). The CC increase was because of the increased WS in 40k and the chainsaw bolted onto them, the decreased FF is because it's only toting a heavy flamer now. I also thought that if it considered Jungle terrain dangerous than woods would be no effect for it. I didn't think these changes deserved a point increase however.

Catachan Devils
I used the regular Storm Troopers as a basis.

Some big changes here. I separated these guys from the Veterans as they have slightly different roles. With them being the best of the best, I also tooled them up as well.

I dropped the save to 6+ (flak vests and use of cover again) and increased the FF to 4+. I justified that change by the fact that they are allowed to take 3 assault weapons per squad in 40k. I thought the plasma-guns/flamers/grenade launchers should count for something. They have no heavy weapon options however in 40k so I didn't give them any here.

I really liked HTB's Teleport and EA (+1) first strike idea for these guys. I think it represents their abilities very well on the epic scale. I also gave them the Leader ability (they are very well trained after all) and the infiltrate ability as I felt it further added to their ambush like tactics. I placed these guys at a cost of 250 points for 6. I'd like people's thoughts on that.

Devil's Garden
This was a great idea from HTB. With the new barrage rules in effect though I thought 3BP would be better as it wouldn't allow an extra template, to counteract that though I gave it ignore cover. I thought this was justified as the booby traps would be set to catch the enemy out in the open and unaware. Use of cover would be severely limited in this case.

Catachan Veterans
I used the regular Storm Troopers as a basis.

I dropped the save to 6+ (flak vests and use of cover again). They are allowed to take a Heavy Flamer and Demolition charges in 40k so I gave them those and dropped the plasma guns. I'm still caught up on a good representation of a demo charge in epic. I pretty happy on what I came up with (assault weapon, macro-weapon, single shot) as I think it is close to what the weapon does in 40k but I'm open to others interpretation here as well. I thought the changes from storm troopers leveled them out so I kept their cost at 200.

Catachan Valkyrie
I used the regular Valkyrie as a basis.

I went with HTB's changes here. I liked the idea of using the FW models for these and I know people have mentioned they wouldn't mind different stats in other lists. I had these priced at 35 points, 10 more than a chimera and 15 less that a steel legion Valkyrie.

Catachan Vulture
I used the regular Vulture as a basis.

I used HTB changes here too. One thing I did change though was the Twin Rocket Pods stats. I thought the Typhoon Launcher would be a better representation of what a gunship would carry when it came to high explosive rockets. Again, thoughts would be appreciated.

That's it, here's the list. Let me know what you think. I proofed it pretty well but let me know if you find a discrepancy.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:05 pm

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I've got a 'Deathworld'Armedgeedon foresty bit list which I love.

Largely due tot he two special rules I use.

One - general. Deathworld vet. Lots of fluff about the obvious. Using forest, luring enemy in, etc etc. Net effect may use cover saves when assaulting (normally only defender gets this of course). Also when applied to walkers treat Impassable terrain as dangerous.

Two - gt. Player may place one additional piece of terrain over the GT standard per 4 foot square of table. So for instance the typically 4 by 6 table would allow you to place 6 additional pieces of terrain. These may be [placed anywhere after deployment zones have been chosen.

Everything else flows from there and its a great fun list - really gives the sense of the jungle being alive and with the save rule going in is no guaranty of safety!

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Heavens To Betsy

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:30 am

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Hi, glad there's some more interest over on here too. Someone called gary is the Army Champion.

Few points regarding the revised army list you posted (which, I have to say, is very well presented).

I don't think there's really the need to create Catachan versions of the Infantry, Support Squad and Snipers units. I don't think their greater Close Combat ability in 40K is enough to translate to a 5+ CC stat in Epic. Also, there's no need to create a unit to be able to give it your Jungle Fighters special rule. Take Space Marines, for example; no Space Marine unit has the And They Shall Know No Fear rule at all. This is a function of the army list, which gives it the flexibility to be removed in other army lists if necessary. I think your Jungle Fighters rule should be presented in the same way. Also, replacing Autocannon with Heavy Bolters is a big step, reducing range by a third and removing any chance at damaging armoured vehicles. I think those three units should stay as they are.

If you're happy with the Devil's Garden as a Spacecraft unit (there were some valid concerns raised that it might not be a good idea), there's no need to list it as 0-1 since no army is allowed more than one Spacecraft unit, regardless of army list or scenario.

I would re-name the Catachan Veterans. Strictly speaking Catachan Devils are the veterans of a regiment. I suggested Imperial Guard Assault Team for those units carrying demolition charges. Regarding the demolition charges' stats, I think I prefer how you have them as Assault Weapons, but I don't think they should be Macro Weapons, maybe Extra Attack (+1) and Ignore Cover. For cosmetic purposes, I'd also replace Lasguns with Shotguns. I would make their CC 5+ and FF 4+. I've always considered Devils to be CC specialists and Assault Teams to be FF specialists.

Regarding Devils, I also prefer Chroma's idea of Small Arms Booby Traps for them instead of my idea of Devil's Claws. Also, Teleport was his great idea, not mine.

You need to specify the Transport capacity of your Valkyries. I would prefer unit by unit but, at the very least, you need to say that they can only carry one Imperial Guard Ogryns unit.

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Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:43 pm

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(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

Hi, glad there's some more interest over on here too. Someone called gary is the Army Champion.

I haven't seen him post in a while, is he MIA?

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

I don't think there's really the need to create Catachan versions of the Infantry, Support Squad and Snipers units. I don't think their greater Close Combat ability in 40K is enough to translate to a 5+ CC stat in Epic.

Well there is some precedence to it (Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Storm Troopers) although the main reason was to add some character and further differentiate the force from standard guard. They are supposed to be the hard core Rambo in space army. Once more, I used it as a balance to the reduced numbers in the Infantry Companies.

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

Also, there's no need to create a unit to be able to give it your Jungle Fighters special rule. Take Space Marines, for example; no Space Marine unit has the And They Shall Know No Fear rule at all. This is a function of the army list, which gives it the flexibility to be removed in other army lists if necessary. I think your Jungle Fighters rule should be presented in the same way.

Well not every unit in the army has the Jungle Fighters special ability (Ogryns and all Vehicles) that's what I kept it on the datafaxes instead of a note at the top. It helps us forgetful people remember to use it.

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

Also, replacing Autocannon with Heavy Bolters is a big step, reducing range by a third and removing any chance at damaging armoured vehicles. I think those three units should stay as they are.

There was another reason for this madness aside for fluff and character reasons. It has a lot to do with the figure in the center here:

http://www.darkrealmminiatures.co.uk/gallery....es2.jpg

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

If you're happy with the Devil's Garden as a Spacecraft unit (there were some valid concerns raised that it might not be a good idea), there's no need to list it as 0-1 since no army is allowed more than one Spacecraft unit, regardless of army list or scenario.

The 0-1 limit on the Garden was purely for memory purposes, removing that is not a big issue. What were the concerns about it however?

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

I would re-name the Catachan Veterans. Strictly speaking Catachan Devils are the veterans of a regiment. I suggested Imperial Guard Assault Team for those units carrying demolition charges. Regarding the demolition charges' stats, I think I prefer how you have them as Assault Weapons, but I don't think they should be Macro Weapons, maybe Extra Attack (+1) and Ignore Cover. For cosmetic purposes, I'd also replace Lasguns with Shotguns. I would make their CC 5+ and FF 4+. I've always considered Devils to be CC specialists and Assault Teams to be FF specialists.

Demo charges are S8AP2 in 40k, that's a lot of power. Considering Ogryns get a Macro-Weapon attack I thought it was justified. Coincidently, demo charges were also why I kept the FF5+. I didn't think a squad could take enough demo charges to qualify for an attack in EA and still take enough assault weapons to qualify for a FF4+. That's why the Devils got the FF4+ and the Assault Team got the FF5+.

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

Regarding Devils, I also prefer Chroma's idea of Small Arms Booby Traps for them instead of my idea of Devil's Claws. Also, Teleport was his great idea, not mine.

What was the idea again? I can't find it.

(Heavens To Betsy @ Jul. 20 2007,05:30)

QUOTE

You need to specify the Transport capacity of your Valkyries. I would prefer unit by unit but, at the very least, you need to say that they can only carry one Imperial Guard Ogryns unit.

I noted that in the Ogryns datafax as I thought it was more appropriate there.

I'd put some of this to a vote, but judging by the response Catachans aren't on a lot of peoples' minds. I liked your Valkyrie and Vulture changes, what did you think of changing the Rocket Pods to the Typhoon launcher stats?

I put a lot of time into the layout and colo(u)rs, thanks. If anyone is interested in a template I could send it to our Font Champion. My plan was to flush out some background text and do some more testing with it.

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Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:47 pm

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(The_Real_Chris @ Jul. 18 2007,16:05)

QUOTE

One - general. Deathworld vet. Lots of fluff about the obvious. Using forest, luring enemy in, etc etc. Net effect may use cover saves when assaulting (normally only defender gets this of course). Also when applied to walkers treat Impassable terrain as dangerous.

I like that a lot, better than the 15cm line of sight part. If it was added though I think cover saves while charging shouldn't be allowed the re-roll 1 rule however as they're moving to fast for them to make maximum use of cover.

(The_Real_Chris @ Jul. 18 2007,16:05)

QUOTE

Two - gt. Player may place one additional piece of terrain over the GT standard per 4 foot square of table. So for instance the typically 4 by 6 table would allow you to place 6 additional pieces of terrain. These may be [placed anywhere after deployment zones have been chosen.

I'm not a huge fan of terrain rules like that though, especially in campaign games where manipulating terrain just doesn't seem right.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:52 pm

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I like the idea of Demo Charges being an extra MW CC attack, instead of FF.

In 40k, their range is 6", one quater the range of a Lasgun.

Plus, re-rolling 1's when saving is very powerful... how about 'Catachan units gain +1 to their cover save (If they have one).

Thus 5+ becomes 4+, etc.

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Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:24 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 20 2007,09:52)

QUOTE

Plus, re-rolling 1's when saving is very powerful... how about 'Catachan units gain +1 to their cover save (If they have one).

Thus 5+ becomes 4+, etc.

Unless my math is wrong I don't think the re-roll on 1 is as powerful as an all out +1 to cover.

Jungle 4+ ~ 50%
Woods 5+ ~ 33.33%
Marsh 6+ ~ 16.67%

Jungle 3+ ~ 66.67%
Woods 4+ ~ 50%
Marsh 5+ ~ 33.33%

Jungle 4+ re-roll 1 ~ 50% + 8.33% (1/6 * 1/2) = 58.33%
Woods 5+ re-roll 1 ~ 33.33% + 5.56% (1/6 * 1/3) = 38.89%
Marsh 6+ re-roll 1 ~ 16.67% + 2.78% (1/6 * 1/6) = 19.45%

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Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:28 pm

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(Hena @ Jul. 20 2007,11:45)

QUOTE

You don't need to add special rules for their sake. I would steer clear of adding extra special rules unless really needed.

Every army so far has at least one special rule though, I think they add a lot of character to an army so long as they aren't too fiddlely/annoying.

The Commissars special rule was dropped from the list, I think the Jungle Fighter special rule is simple enough to implement as a replacement.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:46 pm

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Unless my math is wrong I don't think the re-roll on 1 is as powerful as an all out +1 to cover.

I was worried about what would happen if you put them in fortifications.

3+ with a re-roll if a 1 is rolled is pretty darned harsh!

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Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:10 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 20 2007,12:46)

QUOTE

I was worried about what would happen if you put them in fortifications.

3+ with a re-roll if a 1 is rolled is pretty darned harsh!

Jungle Fighter units may re-roll any 1s rolled on a Jungle, Marsh and or Woods cover saves.

:;):

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Dave

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:00 pm

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White Scars have ATSKNF and the transport rules. My point was that every force has some special rule, not necessarily that every force has a unique special rule.

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Kleomenes

Post subject: Catachan Jungle Fighters listCata

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:40 pm

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I'm a big fan of variant lists like catachans, although I have no plans on playing them. I think variety in guard infantry is a good thing, so for what its worth I'd be supportive of CC5+ Catachans. Those are big machetes!

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