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Baneblade
The stats below (with whatever concensus) 62%  62%  [ 18 ]
Other stats (suggest below) 38%  38%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 29

Baneblade
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:00 pm 
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LOL :D

But really: TRA adds nothing to the Baneblade. Crossifre is a situation wich almost never happens during gamplay. At least in my games.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:46 am 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Jun. 07 2007,21:21)
QUOTE
Allocating Hits to War Engines (artillery attacks)

If the Baneblade was the target of a barrage template then it will be attacked three times, otherwise it will get attacked twice.

Er... a Baneblade that is the target of a barrage template gets hit *twice* (Half DC, rounded up) if it's under the "centre" of the template, and hit *once* if not.

How do you get "three" and "two" hits?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:11 am 
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Blarg:  The advantages for WEs are suppression and continuing to have full firepower despite damage.

Counting crits, each tank is worth ~2.6 hits.  Rounding off, that makes 3 Baneblades equal to about 8 Russ with regards to number of hits needed to destroy them outright.

Baneblades are significantly better in assaults due to barging and almost always being able to use FF values.  Since assaults for Baneblades are mostly defensive, I lumped this in with the toughness to make it about equal, even though raw # of hits would make them worse.

The percentages are based on the "square root rule" of military planning.  Double the firepower is not double the effectiveness because it can still be killed by the same amount of enemy action.  It's equal to the square root.  In order to double effectiveness, you need to quadruple the firepower (square root = 2) or you need to double 2 factors.  Obviously, this is quite applicable to point based systems and if you run numbers across all the army lists, you'll find they come out pretty close as long as you don't let too many extraneous factors creep in.

Russ are 1.3x points.  Assuming all other factors are equal, SQRT(X) = 1.3;  X=~1.6.  The variable factor (firepower in this case) should be ~60% higher.  (I'm aware that it's really 1.69 or 69% higher.  I just rounded in favor of the Baneblades.)

I compared companies because that is the only available baseline with pre-costed formations.  Comparing a Baneblade support formation versus a Russ upgrade has a ton of problems.  The primary one is that the Russ don't get an activation.  Independent formations in the list get a substantial price increase for this reason.  If you want to compare a Baneblade formation versus a Russ upgrade, you have to assume a substantially higher price per unit for an independent Russ formation - something between 225 and 250 for 3 Russ based on the way other companies/formations in the list scale.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:26 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 08 2007,04:00)
QUOTE
But really: TRA adds nothing to the Baneblade. Crossifre is a situation wich almost never happens during gamplay. At least in my games.

Happens all the time, especially to 4+ RA units. Many players delight in such manovers - I keep doing it to terminators and forgetting the buggers have TRA.

As to a fight to the death there are endless ways to justify it.

Tactically it gives it a great niche which is following its fluff of being surrounded holding out till the end and also allows strong advance moves taking enemy side objectives (which is the main tactical use I see for them, capitalising on the toughness and resilence that WE possess.

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Sytoru
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:24 am 
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Okay, I'm still officially a n00b at this game but I thought I'd toss my opinion into the ring on TRA.

  Yes, it would be nice and allow the Baneblade to operate in an unsupported advanced position. But is that really the way it should be operating? The IG (like most of the armies in E:A) don't function correctly when formations are used in isolation. It's all about the interaction and cross formation support.
  As such my Baneblades tend to operate in close support roles, boosting the firepower of the combat group it is a part of and drawing fire. Because of this (and quite possibly because my opponents are also official n00bs at E:A) I have yet to get my Baneblades caught in a crossfire. It happens to other units all of the time but with infantry protection getting into a position to be able to crossfire the Baneblades is extremely difficult.

  The combat groups that I have tried have been:

a) 1x Baneblade + 2x Infantry Companies.
b) 1x Baneblade + 2x Infantry Companies + 1x Sentinel Squadron.
c) 1x Baneblade Company + 2x Infantry Companies + 1x Sentinel Squadron.

  The usual practice is to have the Baneblade(s) stationed between the Infantry Companies and the Sentinels taking a guarding rear position using the Scout rule to block access across a large area. By keeping the front line of the Baneblade(s) back from the front line of the Infantry Companies you can maximise the protection that they have.

  So, whilst I would love to see every upgrade possible thrown on I would be in favour of simply upping the TWHB to 3x. Adjusting the BC to either the suggested BBC or to 3+/3+ would bring the rules more in line with the appearance of the FW Baneblade but isn't a massive issue for me.

-S
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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:02 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 07 2007,19:46)
QUOTE

(Blarg D Impaler @ Jun. 07 2007,21:21)
QUOTE
Allocating Hits to War Engines (artillery attacks)

If the Baneblade was the target of a barrage template then it will be attacked three times, otherwise it will get attacked twice.

Er... a Baneblade that is the target of a barrage template gets hit *twice* (Half DC, rounded up) if it's under the "centre" of the template, and hit *once* if not.

How do you get "three" and "two" hits?

It's been a while since I've done artillery on a WE so I double-checked the rules and screwed up my reading of them.  My mind has been elsewhere getting ready for a vacation.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:04 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 07 2007,21:11)
QUOTE
Blarg: ?The advantages for WEs are suppression and continuing to have full firepower despite damage.

[Edited for brevity]

Hmm...  Interesting.  I'll have to think this through some.  After vacation!

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LordoftheMilk
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:17 pm 
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I like the proposed stats. I think they make the Baneblade a fine tank.

But no TRA!

For argument's sake, Baneblades are much better than Russes against CC assaults.
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Eggmork
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:12 pm 
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Hi all,

I have a couple of battles planned for the weekend, one with the Steel Legion and one with the Siegemasters. I was planning to try the revised Baneblade and just want to clear on the stats to try. So is the version to test:

War Engine
Speed 15cm
Save 4+, 3DC, Reinforced Armour
CC 6+
FF4+
Demolisher Cannon ?AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover, Fixed forward
Autocannon ?AP5+/AT6+
2 x Lascannon AT5+
3 x Twin heavy bolters AP4+ (rather than 5+ as it is twin linked?)
BattleCannon AP3+/AT3+ (upgunned?)

I have left the TRA off as that seems to be in dispute!

Thanks in advance

Eggmork
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:50 pm 
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Yep, those are the most-commonly accepted 'upgunned' stats.

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ortron
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:40 am 
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G'day

I've been using those stats now for about 6 games. I'd now happily take a baneblade in any battle. They really do lay down some smack when they're in that 30cm range. Even out to 45cm they are good. The better main gun is great too because you can happily double forward first turn and usually kill something.


War Engine
Speed 15cm
Save 4+, 3DC, Reinforced Armour
CC 6+
FF4+
Demolisher Cannon  AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover, Fixed forward
Autocannon  AP5+/AT6+
2 x Lascannon AT5+
3 x Twin heavy bolters AP4+ (rather than 5+ as it is twin linked?)
BattleCannon AP3+/AT3+ (upgunned?)


I'm now happy that these changes fix the problem with baneblades and make them a very useful tank in many situations. They can now do serious damage to any formation if used right.

TRA is not required.. fluff arguments aside.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:37 pm 
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Soooo...acording to Apocalypse the Baneblade Battlecannon has a 10inch template.
And instead of it it can have something of a mega Demolisher with 36inch range, Str10, Ap1 and a 10inch template which allows no cover saves.

So i think this justifies better stats :D




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Soren
 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:51 am 
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Absolutely agreed. even 2+/2+ would not bother me... ;)

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