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Elysian List Issues

 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
isnt it funny how statistics can be interpreted. some people would see the poll results of "basically noone plays this army" as a suggestion to consider new ideas, rather than a justification not to.


Tread carefully. This is one of thosse statements that could be taken as trolling for an argument, which I am going to assume for now you are not.

I know where you are going with this - but read the comments on the poll thread. How many people have an army all ready to roll but are saying, "It's just those darn teleport rules that are holding me back"?

For most it is just a cost prohibitive army. And I am considering new ideas; I've asked questions and asked people to flush out ideas. What do you think can be changed on this army that will make people say, "Oh, okay NOW I've got to play Elysians"? Let's hear your ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
How many people have an army all ready to roll but are saying, "It's just those darn teleport rules that are holding me back"?


I know of at least one.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Well for now it's money holding me back.
Then it's the source for kick-ass poroxies whoi snit available anymore (at least for some time)
And that it scares me to paint hundreds of troopers. :D

Another thing:
Back in the days there was the suggestion of a WE Transport Aircraft which could transport 4 (or 6?) Valkyries loaded with troops.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:42 am 
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i knew atleast one too (me. well, sort of, teleport wasnt my only concern, but it was a contributive factor)

I bought up models with the intention of playing elysians and/or vannaheim as one of my first epic purchases, because the idea of droptroop/aircav IG has always been a favourite of mine. however, due to several problems with the list (and frankly, a dislike of the manner that the AC comports himself when the list in questioned) whenever i got the itch to play elysians, i would end up focusing on vannaheim instead. as the vannaheim dont really need (or want) playtesting at this point, the army got sidelined while i worked (and played) on projects which did.

recently there was a burst of new suggestion within the elysian thread, i participated in that exchange, made some suggestions and comments. the suggestions from all parties where for the most part, dealt with in the traditional manner.
luckily, however, a good portion of the suggestions where incorporated into the harakoni list instead (which honestly fits my theme a little better anyway) so i've essentially given up on elysians at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:45 am 
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Quote:
i've been trying to get land raiders to have the 'independant transport' option for some time now, and it's been poo-pooed at every turn. why, then, is it apparently a great suggestion for valkyries (which one would imagine is a much more abuse-potential ridden unit choice)

also, i am quite keen on the idea of properly aircraft based air-dropping infantry. the blood pact do it in Double Eagle, and as such i've been pondering putting it in my list to that effect, but i am wary of special rules bloat, and it would probably be better off here instead.


It seems your frustration isn't just with the Elysian list but the non-WE transport rule in general.

I agree that, were we to make some significant changes such as adding special rules not found anywhere else in the game and/or new units to satisfy the singular function of dropping infantry from the sky so that airplanes can be seen, it could possibly work, after months and months of playtesting and tweaking.

Now take that in its raw form, add it to any discussion to any list, and it would be "poo pooed". Some of the very same people who are so dead set on changing the Elysians in such a fashion have decried doing that to other lists. The push here on the forums has always been less special rules is better than more, along with inventing special units out of thin air. Now I am a firm believer that those rules can/should sometimes be broken, but there really needs to be a strong argument for doing so. When the Army Champ AND the list developer are saying 'nay' then it is time to re-evaluate your position, or take it to the ERC.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:55 am 
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Brainstorm.

Given their reliance and specifically allocated air assets(as opposed to the "allies" within other lists), it would be cool if you could have a CAP rule that lets you intercept intercepting enemy to protect your transport planes.... :) Maybe the transport planes get fighter escorts within the formation or the like. <shrug> It would be a cool scene to see Lightning interceptors dog fighting/clearing a way to protect the transports. Plus it would give the army even more character. Still a rule bender though ;) :D


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:59 am 
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To keep it really simple you could also have the transports actually land, but without any non-AA armament and no FF/CC ability. Then give the Elysian troops Jump Packs, and you have a nice abstract and in-rules version of parachuting.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:04 pm 
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On CAP, I suggest we adopt the Vanaheim approach of allowing the Elysians to place some of their fighters on CAP instead of garrisons on OW.

Mosc is correct that the Iron Discipline rule needs to stay - indeed the Elysians probably need the ability to rally more than any other list (including the Eldar). In its current form it does not seem overly powerfull and does provide character, so I do not see this as a problem.

To the transport issue - I would love to have separate formations (like LRs). However I strongly suspect that it will not happen unless agreed as a general rule - and there has always been a significant resistance to this. So we will have to put up with attached transport if we are to use Valks, Vendettas etc. (unless someone can suggest an appropriate WE that also fits the fluff)

Moscovian wrote:
We could do a lot of things, but so far I don't think anyone has thought past the "what if we-" part.

I'm just not seeing a serious contender to replace the teleport function, nor a good argument to remove it.

I agree with you that the 'invisible a/c' argument is not a problem as there are many other precedents in E:A, and I definitely agree that Teleport should remain; to me at least it has always provided a good analogy for Elysians parachuting in with the subsequent confusions involved being represented by BMs.

However I do have a problem with Teleport being the *only* off-table option available to the Elysians, hence the suggestion of a limited planetfall capability. From the rules mechanics perspective, as air-transport has been ruled out, there seems to be no problem with giving skimmers the 'planetfall' capability (they will still need a spaceship etc); my only real concern is whether this might be too powerfull - though it is offset to some extent by the planetfall process. If the principle is accepted by the Army Champ, we will just have to try it out. Planetfall would certainly provide a differentiator between the Vendettas and Valkyries.

As to how the Elysians are played, the strategy rating together with limited armour means that formations almost invariably end up with BMs in one way or another irrespective of how they arrive, so either way Elysians must make extensive use of terrain***. It is this aspect that forces the Elysians to be handled so differently from other armies. Finding and using cover is the priority; assaults (indeed most 'normal' battlefield objectives) become secondary to trying to preserve an effective force in a usefull position. In my (limited) experience, this is what makes the list somewhat repetitive; the only usefull strategy seems to be a high activation, 'semi-popcorn' list which in turn both limits the formations that can be used and consequently how they are used. There are numerous counters to this strategy, which is why the Elysians are so hard to use effectively and need an almost masochistic amount of practice to become even passably proficient.



**Note
Judging by the many Battle rep pictures posted for all armies, people seem to use too little terrain in general. For Tournament games, the guide (per 2' square area) is two pieces each a *minimum* of 6" across (meaning the length is longer) so ~6"x9" with hills being twice the size or 12"x18" . which represents a battlefield coverage of 25% to 33%.

However, most people seem to use less than two terrain pieces per 2' square area of battlefield that are a maximum of 6" square, and consequently struggle to achieve 10% coverage. While most lists can survive on 'Billiard table' battlefields, the Elysians cannot!


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
...which is why the Elysians are so hard to use effectively and need an almost masochistic amount of practice to become even passably proficient.


I don't know why I found this to be so funny. Probably because it is true. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Btw I don't think a Spacecraft is needed for a Planetfall rule (IF IF IF it were to be implemented). The only things Valkyries do when release from Spacecraft is turn into brightly colored blue or gold meteorites as they incinerate in the atmosphere and dazzle the enemy with their light show.

Were you to include a fifth deployment option for the Elysians, a self-planetfall would work better (representing Valkyries breaking from high altitude to low altitude).

Currently the Elysians can deploy with the following methods:
1. Standard deployment
2. Garrisons
3. Transports (Valkyries, Vendettas, Skytalons)
4. Teleport (grav-chutes)

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:11 pm 
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If not WE-Transport rule for non-WEs how about making Valkyries/Vendettas WEs?
Off course not the individual model rather a Valkyrie/Vendetta Squadron/Flight UNIT (you model 4 or so Valkyries/Vendettas on a Titan-base) which would have WE stats (i would suggest with lesser DC as models featured on the base).
As this is a "new unit" it could be a WE Aircraft.

Vakyrie Flight
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
War Engine, Aircraft 35cm 5+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
4 x Multilaser 45cm AP5+/AT6+ -
8 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ -
8 x Rocket Pod 30cm 1BP Disrupt, One-Shot

Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Valkyrie Flight looses two transport spaces.

Notes: Skimmer, Scout, Transport (may carry 8 units)..

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:34 am 
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Moscovian wrote:
Btw I don't think a Spacecraft is needed for a Planetfall rule (IF IF IF it were to be implemented). The only things Valkyries do when release from Spacecraft is turn into brightly colored blue or gold meteorites as they incinerate in the atmosphere and dazzle the enemy with their light show.

Were you to include a fifth deployment option for the Elysians, a self-planetfall would work better (representing Valkyries breaking from high altitude to low altitude).

While I hear what your say, I personally have never been very comfortable with the 'self-planetfall' mechanic, and furthermore, the Spacecraft limits the number of such activations and formations whilst also providing the list with some much needed long-range fire-power, albeit in limited quantities.

But as you say IF IF IF


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:20 am 
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What about the self-planetfall makes you uncomfortable? I'm not arguing for it, just wondering why you are against it.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Pardon me as I don't know the elysian list, but glancing at the thread from time to time, I found the term "self planetfall" in several instances, I assume as a special rule allowing to planetfall without spacecraft in the list.

I don't know if this would have other consequences in the list (ie: if there are significant formations that may planetfall but not self-planetfall), or if maybe it was already proposed, but I have the following suggestion : if the rule is felt cumbersome or simply felt as special rules glut*, why not give the concerned unit simply planetfall, and add a very cheap or even free spacecraft with no weapons ?

It would simply represent a troop transport vessel, or possibly a troop insertion spaceship, used to insert the surgical-strike teams into orbit, but not equipped with ground striking weapons.



*I personally prefer the avoidance of special rules if possible, but once again I don't know this list


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