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Cadian Shock Troops list idea

 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:12 am 
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I only want to point out thet the SteelLegion Leviathan has the Supreme Commander ability.
You can either have a Infantry Platoon with a Supreme Commander OR the Leviathan as Supreme Commander with a possible second formation to ride in it (functioning as a bodyguard for it).

As for Pylons: I really see no on game effect for these. Both the Imperium and Chaos are happy that they hold open a travelable rout through the Eye of Terror.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:51 am 
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Rug wrote:
Any suggestions?

Ignore the -1 to shooting when carrying out a Marshall action? This could be applied on a stand by stand basis.

I like that as a Veteran ability, showing how they're cool under pressure.

It would make them vaguely better than Marines at ranged shooting though, which feels a little odd.

IIRC in the rulebook, Jervis suggests that a veteran IG company could simply be smaller than a standard one, but with initiative 1+, and a green one would be larger, but with initiative 3+. Too simple?

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:57 am 
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I thought the Companies are already depleted ones? And the sole reason they're only platoon-sized.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:59 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
I thought the Companies are already depleted ones? And the sole reason they're only platoon-sized.

The standard company (1 command unit, 12 ig units) are meant to represent a pretty average company, IIRC, that has suffered some casualties but not a lot.

Jervis suggested that a newbie company would be at least twice that size, but with initiative 3+, and a veteran company might be half that size, but with initiative 1+, IIRC it's in the rulebook in the section about designing your own units.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:57 pm 
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1 Command unit and 12 Infantry unit would be a Company which has suffered ca 80% casualties from their starting strength.

TO&E of an Imperial Guard Company is shown on page 89 of the Epic rulebook.
1 Company consists of:
1 Command HQ (1 Epic unit) and 2-6 Platoons
Each Platoon has 1 Command Section (1 Epic unit) and 2-6 Infantry Squads (2 Epic units each)

In Epic this gives a minimum of 5 units and a maximum of 13 units per Platoon (which is identical to the current rulebook Infantry Company size!).
In Epic this gives a minimum of 11 units and a maximum of 79 units per Company.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Rug wrote:
Any suggestions?

There are all sorts of reasonable Initiative or BM-management benefits that would reflect the improved command and control of veterans.

+1 to Rally
Removing a penalty to Rally (like the Iron Discipline, no -1 for 30cm from the enemy)
+1 to a specific action, if there's something they should be particularly good at
1 extra BM required to break
Access to extra Leader units (not a special rule, obviously, just part of the force org)
Remove one additional BM on Rally and/or Regroup

For simple and easy to run, +1 Rally would have my vote. It's sort of "Initiative 1.5".

Rug wrote:
Ignore the -1 to shooting when carrying out a Marshall action? This could be applied on a stand by stand basis.

That would be good for a "stand and deliver" sort of force, but that's more of an incentive for a Marshall action than a general "these guys are good" ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Quote:
For simple and easy to run, +1 Rally would have my vote. It's sort of "Initiative 1.5".

That'd get my vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:23 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Rug wrote:
I would encourage at least one special rule to reinfore the "Cadian identity" of the list.

This seems reasonable.


I like the +1 rally idea, too. Nice and simple.

Apologies for jumping in so far down the line, but thought I'd throw in the original Cadian rules from Codex: Eye of Terror, in case they offer anyone some inspiration.
In this publication, which slightly pre-dated the 'doctrines-era' Guard Codex, Cadians had:

1) Iron Discipline, a special rule which made them slightly more likely/able to regroup while near their officers.
2) Sharpshooters – a re-roll to hit, if a 1 were rolled.
3) A number of special units, most of which (Youth Army, Kasrkin) are already represented. However, Special Weapon units are one of their defining features, apparantly, and are missing from the current Epic list.
4) The only tanks that they had access to at the time were the Leman Russ Battle Tank, Leman Russ Demolisher and Basilisk (though this may be because the newer versions weren't made up at this point, rather than an intentional restriction!)

There was also an interesting note on the Internal Guard – Ordo Malleus Inquisitors permanently seconded to the Cadian military. The blurb noted that 'it is mentioned here to inform players of a less well-known part of the Cadian military establishment that has considerable gaming potential. Naturally if an Inquisitor's retinue includes any veteran guardsmen it would be entirely appropriate to represent them with Kasrkin models.'

There's also a little colour text containing a quote from 'Inquisitor-General Neve'.

Perhaps this might be a good way to introduce figures with leader, as suggested by nealhunt?
+++

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Quote:
Special Weapon units are one of their defining features, apparantly, and are missing from the current Epic list.

Would they be functionally very different from Battle Psyker squads? (Macro Weapon firefight attacks)

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Quote:
Would they be functionally very different from Battle Psyker squads? (Macro Weapon firefight attacks)


Depends on the Special Weapon chosen, I guess. You could, for example, introduce flamers for ignore cover attacks. Given the proposed emphasis on being aggressive with infantry, perhaps it'd be a way to give them some way to winkle dug-in troops out of cover? Similarly, grenade launchers would be a way of adding a bit more punch to Cadian Infantry companies without buying full-on Fire Support squads.

As you mention, they can easily be 'fluffed-in' (i.e. 'This stand is a special weapon squad, which has no in-game effect'), but it might offer a way to differentiate the play style from other guard lists.

+++
EDIT:
If you do develop the flamer option, it'll allow players to specialise their infantry formations: psykers for taking on tanks, special weapons for clearing out infantry, heavy weapons for holding ground etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:43 am 
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Special Weapon Squats i originally had them equiped with Grenade Launchers which resulted in Fire SUpport units without any ranged shot. Off course this would them make dirt sheap compared to Fiure Support units.

The previous Codex Imperial Guatrd had the following Doctrines for Cadian Shock Troops:

- Grenadiers (= Kasrkins. Can have 0-3 Storm Trooper Squads as Troop choices)
- Can have Sanctioned Psykers
Canhave Special Weapons Squads
- Storm Trooper Squads (= Kasrkin Squads)
- Iron Discipline (if Officer is near a Squad it ignores the -1 on Leadership if it is below half strength and can even rally then)
- Sharpshooters (re-roll all to hit-rolls of 1)
- Can have Conscript Platoon (= Whiteshields)

What Cadians CAN'T have according to the previous Codex:
- Priests
- Engine Seers
- Halflings
- Ogryns
- Rough Riders
- Fire Support Platoons


I like the +1 to rally rolls to represent Iron Discipline. I would add this to Commander and Supreme Commander units. It also could replace the Iron Discipline rule of the Elysians ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops list idea
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:09 am 
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It'd be very nice to see all "elite guard" lists using the same special rule.


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