The double-shot explanation also goes down the drain if you consider that a unit of Devastators don't has 4 Missile Launchers

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Gents, a friendly reminder that we're not here to solve issues in other lists.

1. I like the +25 pts for the plasma upgrade as a start, so will add that.

2. I think these stats are a good starting point, so I'll include them.



I think we need to clarify the gaming mechanism to prevent any abuses of adding this upgrade.

So, I think we need to state a couple of things upfront:

a. A cyclops model is attached to one DTC unit in a formation

b. It is a "one shot" weapon

c. Once it is used in an attack, it is removed from play and does not cause a blast marker to the owning formation

d. It does not count as a stand alone unit in and of itself

e. If the unit it is attached to is eliminated, it is destroyed as well. No transfer of assets

f. I'm thinking that the upgrade should be 1-3 units for 25 pts each, per the above suggestion

Anything else that should be considered for this addition?

For some reason, I am really looking forward to my upcoming Elysian play tests.

Plus, now that I have two Marauder Destroyers painted up and two more on the way, I can really fiddle around with some of these new combinations.

Wishing all of you a very Merry Christmas! <if only ours was going to be a white one>

Cheers,

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Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

A, D & E seem unnessesary. I'd just have it as a standard LV.

I'm sure we can assume that there's a Cyclops controller hanging around in the formation somewhere, and if he gets killed someone else will pick up the radio control system and continue to operate it.

No need for such a fiddly rule. KISS.


B & C make sense.

For F, my preference would be for 3 units for 75pts, rather than 1-3 units for 25pts each, but it's your call and I wouldn't protest if you want to try 1-3 units for 25pts each.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'm thinking somewhat the opposite here, that it might be simpler to have the Cyclops as simply a marker for an upgrade, a la commissars etc. which is removed from play once the one shot weapon goes off. That way you don't have the additional worry of being shot at by AT weapons as well (potentially generating a few extra BMs) - possibly phrasing the unit as a marker might condense some of the points.

Being vulnerable to AT fire is actually part of the drawback for this really powerful unit.

If it's to be just a marker you can "hide" inside the formation it'll need to be a lot more expensive... and, I'd argue, less intuitive for newbies.

Noone I know finds it hard to understand that an Attack Bike inside a Space Marine Bike formation is treated very slightly differently because it's LV instead of Infantry.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

My concern is to prevent someone from "gaming" the fact that instead of an 8 unit formation, it is now an 11 unit formation. Don't ask me how someone "games" this situation, I don't think like that. Probably a strong tourney player might be able to come up with something.

In any case, I want it to be clear that no matter what, the 8 strong formation with Cyclops upgrades is still only 8 strong.

Also, this could have ramifications in regards to transports. If it is attached to a specific unit, then we don't get into transport creep or questions as to why you don't get to buy extra valks/vendettas for them.

If it turns out to not be a problem, then it will be easily corrected.

Since the upgrade will be handled like other unit upgrades (e.g. Ethereals, SCs, etc.), the same restrictions should apply to be consistent.

Also agree that the attaching of the Cyclops then changes that unit to LV until used or destroyed.

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Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Well, I am a regular face on the tourney circuit, and I can't see a way to game it with any kind of reliable utility.

If all you want is extra bodies to give yourself an outnumbering bonus in Engagements, then take the 75pt 4x infantry units upgrade.


Honestly, your concern is completely without cause.
You might as well say that taking any upgrade (Fire Support, Mortars, Infantry, Sentinels, even VALKYRIES!) should keep the formation 8 units strong.


It has the same ramification all the upgrades have in regard to transports: It can't take any.

None of the upgrades can take transports. Again, this concern is a mirage.


Those are Characters, not Upgrades.


And then it changes back into an Inf unit?

Frankly I think that's a very odd way indeed to go about it.
You'll need a second special rule to explain its usage!

Two special rules, just to service one unit type, is extreme.

Also, how do the infantry in that squad have the ability to move about at 20cm sometimes (With no ability to shoot) but only 15cm after they've used the Cyclops (But now they can shoot)? It's b0rked.

Either have it as a normal LV that's added to a formation (Like the Sentinels upgrade), or don't have it at all, is my advice, don't have some kind of odd in-game status swapping thing. Nothing in the game does that.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Why is it that some things make sense at 2.00 am and a few hours later they look really dumb.

<note to self, don't try to be brilliant at 2.00 am, you'll only waste other people's time>




Agree.

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Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I like the idea of the Cyclops being a Character. Certainly it shouldn't affect the parent units type or movement, though. How about:



You don't need to worry about LV vs. INF, because if an AP weapon kills the squad it's attached to, the person with the remote is dead, too. CC or FF represents the ability of the operator to drive it across the battlefield to hit a target. Allowing it a FF MW hit is, of course, more powerful than just a CC MW hit. I'd suggest 1 for 25pt or 2 for 50.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

At those stats, I'd double the cost!

You can't kill it by AT sniping because it's infantry type, and it hits things with a MWFF 2+ attack!

Plus, it's a vehicle of slightly stronger armour class than a Sentinel in 40k (Same armour rating, but not open topped), so it really should be a LV not infantry.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

You can't aim it, though, and it's got no armor save in most Elysian Infantry. You're far more likely to kill something cheap, then it's useless. I think a One Shot weapon would be better to abstract into the parent units stats, than invent a seperate statline for, personally.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I like this the most, but I'd probably make it more expensive than that or decrease it's effectiveness (pref MW4+ at 25 pt? I don't think that being able to drop titans in cc easily for those low points will fly).
If you consider the abstracted level of warfare in epic, a unit/formation that has AT only weapons being able to shoot into and sniper a cyclops in a unit of 40 guardsmen without being able to damage any of the guardsmen just seems really weird. They are only single little buggers. As a character upgrade on a stand the stand controlling the cyclops can still be killed by the same AP weapons that are targeting the unit making more sense, and I think it will generally just look better and be easier to understand modeled on a stand with a controller and used like a character! Now can I magnetise something that teeny...

Checking the 40K rules, I'd forgotten it's only a S8 AP2 charge (unless that's changed since IA1). MW4+ seems reasonable. It's also destroyed by any Glancing or Penetrating hit. A bolter could take it down on a lucky roll.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

How about character, one shot: sniper, MW4+

It's a light vehicle with better armour than a Sentinel, so, no.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter