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Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
Ilushia
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:53 am 
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In the old Fluff material the battle for Tallarn during the Horus Heresy was mostly fought with tanks. The entire planet was infected with a virus which wiped out all life down to the bacterial level, and would flare up unexpectedly rendering infantry largely useless. Unfortunately I don't think there's much about their current mode of conflict, though they have some positive ties to the Eldar after the Dark Eldar invasion of their world.

For the Destroyer Tank Hunter I'm going to suggest something new, different and as-yet unseen in Epic... A MW attack which can only target specific kinds of enemies. Something like this:

75cm, AT 3+, Macroweapon.

While I realize some of you are going to go "No way! That's against the rules!" think for a moment. Why can't a Macroweapon only be good against specific kinds of targets? Most macroweapons in Epic are large-scale weapons which can easily wipe out a large number of infantry as well as tanks. But the Destroyer isn't. It fires a laser beam which can slice through tank armor with ease. Even the vaunted Land Raiders are hard pressed to survive being hit by its weapon. But the weapon has a very small area of effect and fires slowly, which seems to lend towards it only being useful against tanks.

In the defense of how this works: We also have Firefight and Close Combat macroweapons which can't be used against targets you can't Firefight or Close Combat against, so I don't see why it would be unjustifiable to use it as a weapon-rule instead of a weapon-type (In fact, in the rule book it's listed in with the weapon special rules!)
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:23 am 
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(OracleBoyd @ Feb. 21 2007,06:08)
QUOTE
So,

I think if you are actually going to call this a Tallarn list, you really have to include Rough Rider formation.  They are sort of central to the Tallarn fluff.  In fact, they are mentioned more in what I've read than Mech Infantry.

It might even be interesting to see them as a core formation rather than a support formation, but that may be going too far.

This is a Tallarn Armoured Regiment, not a Light Infantry Regiment.

Tallarn is 'famed' for producing both types of Regiments.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:29 am 
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Unfortunately I don't think there's much about their current mode of conflict,


There's massive ammounts of info on the Tallarn methods of war in Imperial Armour 3, which I have read twice.


For the Destroyer Tank Hunter I'm going to suggest something new, different and as-yet unseen in Epic... A MW attack which can only target specific kinds of enemies. Something like this:

75cm, AT 3+, Macroweapon.

Definitely worth thinking about... currently I've been testing the Destroyer with 75cm, AT4+, Sniper.

Note that the Sniper attack reduces the target's save by -1, so similar results are often achieved as with using Macro-Weapons (Against RA4+, modifying it to RA5+ is almost the same as the result of a MW hit, probability-wise).

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:10 pm 
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On the Sniper bit: The biggest issue I have with Sniper is that it lets you pick out characters from the rest of the unit. Combined with a 4+ hit-number and large formations that allows for some fantastically nasty potential to wipe out leaders and inspiring characters before assaults. This is even MORE nasty when you consider that these weapons have a 75cm range, meaning they'll be able to Sustain Fire with reasonable regularity. On average the MW effect is MORE lethal then Sniper, but it does not allow you to specifically pick out who you kill. The other effect of this I like is that it makes the models inside the tank less likely to survive if the tank is a transport. Since the MW will carry over to the units inside.

I'm not seeing the AT-as-MW thing being a big issue. You could always come up with some new name for the special ability specific to that unit, to avoid the confusion of a weapon which is AT-specific and a Macroweapon, I suppose. Something like "Armor Piercing: Destroyer Tank Hunters carry heavy-duty lasers larger and more dangerous then the Imperial Lascannons or even the Eldar Brightlances. These weapons may only fire AT attacks, however in all other respects they are treated as Macroweapons (So a tank with Reinforced Armor would get only a single save, and one without RA would get no saves)." Or something along those lines. It just seems like that style of "Ignores armor saves, reduces RA" fits better then Sniper.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:27 pm 
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The sniper function on the tank is odd - but strangely appealing. The fact that you don't have to create a special rule for the list is also a good thing in this era of TOO MANY special rules (IMO).
It also brings itself into allignment with the tank description (able to single out enemy tanks).

While Ilushia's concerns are valid, there aren't too many examples of armored characters.  Commissars can be, some aspects of the AMTL (of course everything is armored on that list :;): ), Ork Gargants when they appear with the SC.  And the cost on that tank is NOT cheap.  I don't think it would get out of hand.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:18 pm 
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Although there arent many vehicle characters, it will allow you to strip out transported characters very easily...  

Having said that I think that sniper makes alot of sense, but the ability to strip out transports still needs to be kept in mind.




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Heavens To Betsy
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Originally posted by Ilushia
Why can't a Macroweapon only be good against specific kinds of targets?

Hooray! Someone else thinks so!

I know you're only suggesting this for one, new particular weapon, but I suggested this a while back for all macro weapons.

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=6316

A few people pointed out that, for the sake of the very few units for which I think this is a problem (the Land Speeder, for example), it's not worth changing the core rules.

However, I think it is worth it because it then means we have a greater flexibility to create new units like the one you propose above.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:28 am 
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What about a note in the weapon block that says - can only target Armoured Tanks or War Machines.  I do not think it is a bad idea to have it as a MW, just note it can only be used as an AT would be.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 am 
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Panzer Sniper ... brings to mind ... Panzer Leader, Micheal Wittman, Panzer VIa, Tiger I, Normany, WWII ...  
:)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:36 am 
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Specific MW is unfortuently out until the rules go to version 2.

Lance however is in.....

I personally would have picked one of those regiments from dan abnets books for name recognition, but its your list - to desend into acronims - DWWFY :)

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:07 am 
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I'd be OK with the prospect of lance-based lasers as well, though that seems to make them under-powered against transports considering their awesome kill-power against vehicles.

I just really don't like Sniper on an AT weapon. Not only does it allow picking characters out of tank formations (An admittedly relatively rare thing to find), but it makes killing AA units inside tank formations easy, facilitates killing transported Supreme Commanders, allows you to directly target items without worrying about screening like Necron Monoliths which have 3 Obelisks around them, allow you to pile all of the attacks onto a single titan when firing into titan-pairs, essentially remove the usefulness of Tau Drones to defend tank formations, pick out the Dominatrix instead of the two closer Hierodules, directly attack Tyranid Hive Tyrants surrounded by Carnifexes... I'm sure I could find more examples. In many cases this allows you to cut out one of the specialist units in a formation quite easily. Most notably I'd imagine it being a monster against Orks who like to field 'uge Blitz Brigades as they let you pick out their Oddboyz and destroy them easily.

Sniper on AT weapons just seems dramatically better then on AP weapons. I don't know that it actually is, but it sure feels that way. The fact that this weapon has such an awesome range makes it more-so. I don't think there's a single other Sniper weapon in the game with a range over 45cm. I'm not even sure how many have over 30cm!
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orangesm
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:08 pm 
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But that is the point of the Destroyer - to pick out particular tanks/heavy targets and kill them.  It is a sniping tank.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:21 pm 
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But think about being on the receiving end of that snipe.  Ilushia brings good points to the table and he is definitely right on one point: the sniper function is markedly better with AT, if for no other reason than AT targets are more expensive.

While I dislike the special rule thing, the idea that the Russ Destroyer is overpowered is not without merit.

Perhaps reducing the range to 60cm?  While reducing the range on a sniper may seem counter-intuitive, consider it a limit on the effective range that it can single out an armored vehicle.  However, the vehicle still remains deadly at that range.

Another point to consider is cost.  Remember you can have a maximum of 3 per core formation.  If you wanted to pile up these things into your army list, the cheapest formation you could have 3 of them in is 650 points. That breaks down to (40 points x 7)+(100 points x 3) = 580 points, less than the cost of a regular LR formation.  

With three per formation, the average will be two hits per volley with the snipers.  Kills will vary on armor value, but you figure 1+ kills is close enough to a real value.  However, running a formation like this leaves you will no other long-ranged weapons (the Thunderers don't have the oomph) so the question still remains...
Is the sniper ability too powerful?

If it were to be changed I would recommend a small change in range (60cm sounds fair) or a price bump of +10 points each.  Past that I can't imagine them being selected regardless of their ability.  But leaving it as is would certainly be worth playtesting as well.

I'd like to try to 'break' the list with these sniper tanks and see if it is possible.  Wont have an opportunity to do that for another month, but I will certainly report back.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Imperial Guard Armoured Regiment V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:32 pm 
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I think you are misunderstanding what a sniping tank is.
It is a tank destroyer - it doesn't pick out the tiger in a formation of Panzers, rather it can act from a prepared position, ambush the unit and cause disruption as a sniper would. It is a high powered shot from nowhere as opposed to a unit that picks off the command tank.

I suggest going and reading about German StuG's and similar to get a feel for how these things were used.

Indeed perhaps disrupt is a better idea considering the disruption and fear they cause. Range 100cm AT2+ Disrupt could be an option. Or just stick with the somewhat predictable MW3+ or MW4+

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