Sure an APC full of troops is a tempting 2 for 1 target ... But as I said, in a firefight the APC could lend it's firepower in a support role.  That's one of the uses of weapons on an APC/IFV ...

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Oh and the DeathKorps stillneeds a special rule to allow transportation of a single formation in two separate War Engines (Gorgons).

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So how about the following changes to the Death Korps of Krieg armylist:

- Rename Thudd Gun to Quad-Launcher. It DOES look different to the Baran Tudd Gun. The Baran Thudd Gun has one single barrel while the DK Quad-Launcher has 4 barrels.
- Make Heavy Mortar and Quad-Launcher Speed 0cm. They are immobile in Wh40k and need a Centaur to tow around. The Quad-Launchers special Pinning rule might justify Disrupt while the Heavy Mortars selection of special ammunition (expecially the Infernus shells)might justify Ignore Cover. Quad-Launcher should have 1BP Indirect Fire.
- Heavy Mortar and Quad-Launcher battery as Field Artillery Battery as its own (support) formation 4 units strong with the option to take 4 Centaurs.
- add Artillery Company (9 Earthsaker and/or Medusa Platforms or a mix of them with the option to take 9 Trojans). The DK is known to field huge amounts of artillery.
- add Heavy Artillery Company (9 Bombards). The DK is known to field huge amounts of artillery.
- change Regimental Company to Command Platoon (1 DK Supreme Commander unit and 4 Grenadier units with 5 Centaurs as transport option)
- change the DK Infantry Company to Infantry Platoon (1 DK Commander units and 12 DK Infantry units), no option for Gorgons, option to add 3 Heavy Support Units each armed with 2 Twin Heavy Stubbers, option to double all units in the formation (essentially taking two Platoons and merging them to one single formation)to represent the DK tenedncy to use massed Infantry assaults.
- add Assault Infantry Platoon (1 DK Commander unit and 9 DK Infantry units mounted in a Gorgon).
- remove the option to take a Gorgon for the Grenadiers. They will mainly use Centaurs because they are the DK rapid reaktion force. They are either held in reserve or strike in advance of the main force. Gorgons are to slow for this.
- add a DeathRider Command unit as 13th unit to the Death Rider Company. same stats as DK Rough Rider unit but with Commander.

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Some of those may be good points, though you are asking for considerable changes at the eleventh hour which would largely invalidate much of existing playtesting.

A Thud Gun is a Quad Launcher, it's just a different name for the same thing - the FW online store refers to them as QUAD LAUNCHER 'THUDD GUN' if there are aesthetic differences it's just a different pattern/design to the same weapon effect.

Making minor barrage units 4 strong is a big boost from 3BP to 4BP and I think these are best as is. Even if W40k lists them in up to 4s there's no need to match this - what's best for the game of epic is more important.

Generally I think units sizes that work best in epic should be given primacy over how many units are shown in a FW sample army illustration.Other lists don't pay much attention to them either.

I pointed out the fact that basic Krieg infantry are unusual in being allowed zero ranged weapon at all some time ago, instead having separate fire support units with all their heavy weapons which can sometimes be attached. The comeback counter-argument to this was that if you had only a small number of heavy weapons in a much larger unit with no ranged weapons then they would get suppressed very easily. I'm undecided whether these should be represented strictly correctly or the heavy weapons abstracted out amongst the total unit effects. Do small arms fire count for suppression if they're within 15cm? If so then considering Heavy Stubber are only 30cm range anyway this wouldn't be so bad.

Whatever happens I will model no heavy weapons in normal squads but then have extensively converted fire support units with heavy weapons made from plasticard with them - it is going to be a little annoying / backwards to have to explain to my opponents each game that these properly represented Krieg are not at all WYSIWYG and what looks should be fire support units, in the same way as normal guard have, are actually just normal infantry too with the heavy weapon effects spread around.

Can I put a request in for a Krieg Armoured Company list based on a modified version of the Minervan list? It'd add Machariuses, Centaurs, Death Riders and that in but loose the Vultures / Valkyries, etc.

I am open to possibly starting, essentially, a version 2 of the Krieg list now that the final Vraks book has been released.

And yes, it would effectively render much of the playtesting over the last few years obsolete... but hey, with new proxies coming soon and a likely increase in testing of the list, I can see us getting it re-balanced again within a few months, at which point it can be declaired finished once and for all.



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Thoughts gents?

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The "Minervan" list started life as a Kreig Armoured Company list, interestingly.

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Your call E&C. I can certainly see an increase in playtesting soon. Should think it would be more a version 1.5 than a totally new re-start (there's not that much new DK material in the new book, bar the armoured company list).

What's your opinion on the possibility of doing the infantry accurately with the basic infantry company having zero ranged weapons of any kind? Then having an an optional upgrade with fire support units and an option to field them a small separate units (think this is something they do but my memory could wrong on this latter bit).

It would make them different from other types and have it's disadvantages tactically but it would presumably knock their cost down a little so you would really get hordes of cannon fodder for your points.

It seems feasible.

If moving in this direction, I would like to remove the Manticore platform from the list, in exchange for the new Fire Support unit.

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The current list is pretty good, but it could be a better representation of the Death Korps we know and love from the Vraks books in some ways - and they are very likely the army with the single most background in the greatest detail and attention to detail in W40k.

Really it's up to E&C, but I think there's good reason to improve the list further, more playtesters should come to it soon with upcoming releases too :-)

Doing the infantry properly and loosing the Manticore Platform seems like a good call to me. They do a lot of shelling and Manticores would probably run out of their specialist too quickly for their tastes.

What would be the purpose behind making this change this late in the game?

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Removing Manticores does De-Tech them somewhat...sometimes armies are made more flavourable by what they can't do by what they can :-)

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Not balance... the list is pretty balanced as-is.


The only reason to make changes at this stage is for representational reasons, or 'fluff' reasons.


Two specifics :


1 - It has been raised that Death Korps infantry units don't normally have embedded Heavy Weapons, instead they have dedicated Heavy Support squads attached to formations.

2 - It is notable that the Death Korps are not allowed access to Manticore platforms in 40k.

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To quote Vraks I


Which as well as having a look over the DK army list (with it's unique thing of zero heavy weapons available to basic infantry platoon squads) and sample regiments again says to me a ‘Heavy Weapons Platoon’ of the Krieg equivalent of Fire Support squads should be a separate small detachment in epic and that Krieg infantry companies in epic should not be allowed any heavy weapons (with the exception of the singular one from their command unit). It might well be a good idea to make these units 0-1 per Infantry Company to prevent any weird combinations such as someone taken loads of Rough Riders Companies and plus Heavy Weapons platoons but no basic infantry.

Added bonus thought: If the list were delayed weeks / months would you update unit pictures for Otterware for a much better and more truly Krieg-like look? You already depict ‘scratchbuilt’ Machariuses in there so it’s not like it that would be any different and that would just make the book even more awesome

That decision would be entirely down to Mr. Otter. I would be happy to include pictures of his scratchbuild models, but it's his call if he wants to have those pictures in there or not.

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